Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations?

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Apr 7, 10, 21:58 #31

Bratwurst Boy:

Are there other cases? A law or something? Because knowing my Prussians there might be something wrong with the planned house rather than a law against Poles having property...

Apart from colonisation comitee that bought up Polish lands to re-sell them to German colonists (lands that Poles had to sell for the lowest market price) and the so called "Rugi Pruskie" that saw 26.000 Poles booted from their homes and lands because they couldnt provide evidence of being Prussian citzens? Plenty.

enkiduThreads: 18 Posts: 978 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Apr 7, 10, 21:58 #32
I think that everyone who had any property in Poland before war and lost it shall be compensated by the Poland's government. Minus maintenance/rebuilding costs for the 63 years.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 7, 10, 22:01 #33
Enkidu, that's just a flaming comment. They lost it because the Nazis destroyed it so don't be so absurd! It is not Poland's fault that Hitler and Stalin did what Piłsudski suspected they might. Why don't you pay all the reparations out of the interests of justice and humanity?

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 7, 10, 22:05 #34

Sokrates:

Apart from colonisation comitee that bought up Polish lands to re-sell them to German colonists (lands that Poles had to sell for the lowest market price) and the so called "Rugi Pruskie" that saw 26.000 Poles booted from their homes and lands because they couldnt provide evidence of being Prussian citzens? Plenty.

They BOUGHT lands from the Poles??? What a mean thing to do!!! Germans bought for that again too??? What another horrible thing to do...

"Non-citizens" being booted out? Well, that happens in one form or another in most countries today too...
As far as I know most Poles actually WERE prussian citizens during the partitions (in Prussia that is)

Give me more!

PS: I just doubt more and more living in the prussian part of the partitions was the "living hell" some Poles like to see it:

...
Of the three partitions, the education system in Prussia was on a much higher level than in Austria or Russia.

From the economic perspective, the territories of the Prussian partitions were the most developed, thanks to the progressive policies of the Prussian government.[2] The German government supported efficient farming, industry, financial institutions and transport.[2]

or Norman Davies "God's Playground" page 88:

"...In this age of Science and Industry, Prussia boasted one of the most modern societies of Europe and it's polish citizens were free to reap the benefits!"

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 7, 10, 22:20 #35
How about the British government coughing up for wrongly handing Palestine on a plate to Zionists? Balfour had no authority to do that.

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Apr 7, 10, 22:25 #36

Bratwurst Boy:

They BOUGHT lands from the Poles??? What a mean thing to do!!!

Given that it was racially motivated, yeah a pretty mean thing to do, it failed mostly because Germans didnt want to move and Poles organised an even better counter-purchase movement.

Bratwurst Boy:

"Non-citizens" being booted out? Well, that happens in one form or another in most countries today too...

Hold on champ, Germany stole the lands these people were on, Prussian goverment had no legal right to even name Poles as Prussian citizens or Poland as Prussia, we can agree that might makes right but then it again boils down to common theft.

Bratwurst Boy:

As far as I know most Poles actually WERE prussian citizens during the partitions (in Prussia that is)

We're talking about Poland here, primarily Poznań and the Greater Poland.

Bratwurst Boy:

Give me more!

Google Children of Września, Polish language was banned as an official language in Poland.

Bratwurst Boy:

PS: I just doubt more and more living in the prussian part of the partitions was the "living hell" some Poles like to see it:

I'm not saying it was living hell but it was not fun and games, bottom line is Poles were denied their national practices in their own country.

Bratwurst Boy:

"...In this age of Science and Industry, Prussia boasted one of the most modern societies of Europe and it's polish citizens were free to reap the benefits!"

In other words Polish national conscience would not be bought with moola, if anything thats a thing to be proud of.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 7, 10, 22:29 #37
Israeli Jews might be taken slightly seriously if they followed the proclamations of the ICJ in 2004. They sat in session for a long time and reached their decisions/verdicts carefully. Why should anyone care what they are bleeting on about if they don't play ball either?

TheOtherThreads: 5 Posts: 1,441 Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂	Apr 7, 10, 22:34 #38
Sokrates: Germany stole the lands these people were on That's the official Polish version of history. You call it occupation while the rest of the world calls it annexation.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 7, 10, 22:39 #39

Sokrates:

Given that it was racially motivated, yeah a pretty mean thing to do, it failed mostly because Germans didnt want to move and Poles organised an even better counter-purchase movement.

Oh please, we are talking modern Prussia here who even gave Jews equal rights and citizenship not Nazi-Germany!

Sokrates:

Hold on champ, Germany stole the lands these people were on, Prussian goverment had no legal right to even name Poles as Prussian citizens or Poland as Prussia, we can agree that might makes right but then it again boils down to common theft.

Poles were citizens like Huguenotts, Jews and other minorities...Prussia was rather multikulti to it's high time!
It was all legal done after treaties...you know...like the Treaty of Versailles much later!

Sokrates:

Google Children of Września, Polish language was banned as an official language in Poland.

If it was Prussia, well...the main language in Prussia was GERMAN...you are not making German the mainlanguage of modern Poland because of some Germans living there, don't you...

Sokrates:

In other words Polish national conscience would not be bought with moola, if anything thats a thing to be proud of.

I think Poles need to have enemy...and to romanticise their part in history to feel better.
Prussia wasn't so bad as you paint it...not only Poles lived there quite well compared to Partition/Russia for example but Poles immigrated to Prussia quite voluntarily in search for work and a better life.

That's a fact too!

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Edited by: Sokrates Apr 7, 10, 22:39 #40

TheOther:

That's the official Polish version of history. You call it occupation while the rest of the world calls it annexation.

Which is pretty much the same.

Bratwurst Boy:

Oh please, we are talking modern Prussia here who even gave Jews equal rights and citizenship not Nazi-Germany!

Yet children were beaten to the blood for refusing to learn religion in German and people were booted from their homes for being Polish.

Bratwurst Boy:

Poles were citizens like Huguenotts, Jews and other minorities...Prussia was rather multikulti to it's high time!
It was all legal done after treaties...you know...like the Treaty of Versailles much later!

Nope, Poles were members of an occupied nation, being occupied is different than being a minority, it wasnt legally done because Poland did not agree to it, invasion and forcefull theft of property to which you have no claim is legal how? Based on your logic gassing Jews was legal as well.

convexThreads: 47 Posts: 7,189 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Apr 7, 10, 22:41 #41
TheOther: That's the official Polish version of history. You call it occupation while the rest of the world calls it annexation. Moral of the story, don't trust your politicians and defend your country before it gets picked apart.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 7, 10, 22:42 #42

Sokrates:

Yet children were beaten to the blood for refusing to learn religion in German and people were booted from their homes for being Polish.

Don't you think german kids were not beaten for being unwilling to learn???
German schools were strict...kids got beaten all the time...
But let me remember what Nathan told me about polish tries to make Ukrainians to abolish their language...

Sokrates:

and people were booted from their homes for being Polish.

For not being prussian citizens you wanted to say? Where did they come from? From Russia? Black workers....not paying taxes? Squatters? What???

Sokrates:

Nope, Poles were members of an occupied nation, being occupied is different than being a minority, it wasnt legally done because Poland did not agree to it

Rofl...Agreement isn't necessary if you are the loser...ask Germany!

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,870 Joined: Aug 6, 09 MEMBER ♂	Apr 7, 10, 22:44 #43
Harry Bratwurst Boy: Huh? Do you have a link for that? Don't be silly: of course he doesn't. the link is your library, books about partition of Poland go find it and read it as I have and let's apply the same logic and how about if Israel compensate Palestinians from taking their land after 1947. I am sure Palestinians can proof the ownership.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 7, 10, 22:45 #44
The topic is about Jews and their pestering for reparations. Why should the current Polish government be bound by their predecessors? Why didn't more come forward in the immediate aftermath of WWII? It is just a farce and dangerous circus show.

TheOtherThreads: 5 Posts: 1,441 Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂	Edited by: TheOther Apr 7, 10, 22:46 #45
Sokrates: Which is pretty much the same. Oh, absolutely not. An occupied country does not seize to exist while an annexed territory becomes part of the annexing nation. Poland was annexed by force. It did not exist at that time and this was an accepted fact worldwide (except for Turkey, Denmark and Spain?).

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Apr 7, 10, 22:46 #46
Bratwurst Boy: Don't you think german kids were not beaten for being unwilling to learn??? Not like that no, also their parents were not being sent to prison for supporting them, the event of Września was the first of its kind in that students were flogged or arrested. Another time when students were flogged was when they sang Pole instead of Preussen during music class, thats normal to you?

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 7, 10, 22:47 #47

Marek11111:

the link is your library, books about partition of Poland go find it and read it as I have
and let's apply the same logic and how about if Israel compensate Palestinians from taking their land after 1947. I am sure Palestinians can proof the ownership.

Idiot!
Israel hasn't taken the Palis in, nor have they the same rights and duties as Israelis...

Sokrates:

Not like that no, also their parents were not being sent to prison for supporting them, the event of Września was the first of its kind in that students were flogged or arrested.

Well...the state forces the main language...tell me how this is different to what all nation states do and what Poland tried in Ukraine????

richasisThreads: 5 Posts: 833 Joined: Jul 25, 09 ♂	Edited by: richasis Apr 7, 10, 22:48 #48
Harry: They might like it back but they need to direct their claims for compensation to the German government. They need to direct their claims to the Jewish Banking Elite which profited from all European Wars since (at least) the time of Napoleon.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 7, 10, 22:50 #49

Sokrates:

Another time when students were flogged was when they sang Pole instead of Preussen during music class, thats normal to you?

Nationalistic Poles were always a pest (as were nationalistic Germans), but those who accepted had it as good or bad as the Germans and all other minorities...that's what the fact is.
Prussia was a highly modern, enlightened state with equal laws for all...Poles profited from it mightily. THEY EVEN IMMIGRATED IN MASSES TO PRUSSIA!
To take out some examples where nationalism clashed and to make it the one and whole history is just wrong!

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 7, 10, 22:50 #50
What does international public opinion say on the matter? Likely that they are raising antiquated claims based on opportunism. The Jews deserve nothing for their mini-Holocaust on Palestinians. Those that had title deeds through documentation have missed their chance. This is Poland and Poles have this property now. It's not their fault that Germany and Russia had nutjobs as leaders.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 7, 10, 22:58 #51

Here...read that short excerpt from the NYTimes from 1901
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9C06E1DA1130E13 2A25754C1A9669D946097D6CF

It speaks of elections, growing prosperity and influence of the polish middle class...HOW F*UCKING HORRIBLE IT MUST HAVE BEEN FOR THE POLES IN PRUSSIA!!!

".....The Polish agitation, the growing prosperity and influence of the Polish middle classes, and the expansion of the Poles in Prussia, say's the Times's correspondent, all continue to causes anxiety...."

German Prussians anxious about polish Prussians??? How f*ucking unbelievable!!!!
Who opresses whom here????

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Edited by: Grzegorz_ Apr 7, 10, 23:09 #52

rychlik:

$65 billion

Some years ago one of the Jewish leaders (of the World Jewish Congress or something) said that Poland will be humiliated (his own words) until $65 billion is paid for "stolen Jewish property". Soon later appeared the issue of the most famous barn (140^2) where 1600 Jews were burnt.

Bratwurst Boy:

German Prussians anxious about polish Prussians??? How f*ucking unbelievable!!!!
Who opresses whom here????

Poles were opressing Gerries obviously... Butt, what the hell are you trying to prove with some archival text about Polish journalist who was arrested and another guy, who had some documents confiscated...

TheOtherThreads: 5 Posts: 1,441 Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂	Edited by: TheOther Apr 7, 10, 23:09 #53
Bratwurst Boy: It speaks of elections, growing prosperity and influence of the polish middle class... BB, there are always two different versions of history: the one that is accepted worldwide and the other one that is written by politicians of a country. Poland is no exception in this respect.

convexThreads: 47 Posts: 7,189 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Apr 7, 10, 23:10 #54
Sokrates: Nope, Poles were members of an occupied nation, being occupied is different than being a minority, it wasnt legally done because Poland did not agree to it, invasion and forcefull theft of property to which you have no claim is legal how? Based on your logic gassing Jews was legal as well. What occupation? The people in power sold out the poor. Poles in power sold out their countrymen.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Apr 7, 10, 23:11 #55
TheOther: Poland is no exception in this respect. Well, I hope I could dispel some much loved myths...;) But regarding Prussia I'm biased...I admit...I might go into battles for it even without helmet...

TheOtherThreads: 5 Posts: 1,441 Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂	Apr 7, 10, 23:14 #56
Bratwurst Boy: Well, I hope I could dispel some much loved myths Sokrates and a few others are rather hopeless sometimes... :)

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 7, 10, 23:22 #57

TheOther:

Sokrates and a few others are rather hopeless sometimes... :)

I mean I can accept that those stories were told from the parents and teachers to the children to rally all Poles in rather difficult times behind the polish flag and to make sure they know who the enemy is but now it get's rather tiresome....Poles also should take another look or two at what they were told for so long.

Grzegorz_:

Poles were opressing Gerries obviously... Butt, what the hell are you trying to prove with some archival text about Polish journalist who was arrested and another guy, who had some documents confiscated...

Well, compared to your much repeated stories of kids being beaten and the circus wagon clown it is a refreshing eye witness about how it really was...of course you don't like it, won't fit into the narrative what you are used to..but sorry...there is more of that out there!

Read that NYTimes 1900:
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9C04E5DC1E3BEE33A257 5AC0A9649D946197D6CF

"Prussia fears the Poles"

"....recent enormous progress of the Poles, politically and economically, and their numerical increase..."

Doesn't sound like an opressed, suffering people to me...really not!

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,870 Joined: Aug 6, 09 MEMBER ♂	Apr 7, 10, 23:49 #58
BB you do not like when people point the evil things German did as your German book omitted the fact and you call me names well go to hell to meet you grandfather Adolf.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Apr 7, 10, 23:51 #59
Marek11111: BB you do not like when people point the evil things German did as your German book omitted the fact and you call me names well go to hell to meet you grandfather Adolf. My grandfather's name was Wilhelm and you are still an idiot!

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Apr 8, 10, 00:06 #60

Firstly, this is not just a question about reparations for the Jewish victims. By far the majority of the dispossessed are not Jewish. In any case a differentiation should be made between the Jewish people and Israel. Failure to do this is the equivalent of blaming Polish Catholics for the actions of Pinochet's Argentina purely because they share a religion.

Secondly, international opinion is that there does need to be reparation as demonstrated by the conditions for Poland's accession to the EU and the stance of the ECHR on the topic. This is not to say that Poland is being picked on by the international community. All other EU countries that suffered a similarly turbulent history have been asked for and have give reparations consisting of a small proportion of the sums lost. This is not a question of avarice. This is a question of justice and an action demonstrating, not contrition, but recognition of the wrongs.

What do you all think should happen and why? The figs are not nearly as high as the initial comment on this stream. It is currently being mooted that 12% of the value of any claim will be a fair sum. There is also the question of proof of ownership. Documentation rarely survives due to the conflicts in this period, but there are other ways to prove previous ownership such as alternative documents to deeds and even, the memories of those still living in the locality.

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