Why are Jews pestering Poland for "proper" WW2 monetary restitution/reparations?

HarryThreads: 60 Posts: 8,191 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂	Apr 8, 10, 00:14 #61
enkidu: Minus maintenance/rebuilding costs for the 63 years. The rent would more than cover the maintenance. Obviously any rebuilding costs would need to be paid by the recovering owners (less the surplus left over from deducting the maintenance costs from the rent).

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 8, 10, 00:33 #62

Another very interesting document of time:
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A02E7DC1030E733A257 5AC1A96E9C946397D6CF

"A Pole's defiant speech"

Printed, published in Berlin, distributed in whole Prussia - my what an "opressing, censoring, undemocratic dictatorship" this mean Prussia had been! *sarcasm*
They not only distributed the news and let them talk but even let those Poles live on afterwards without sending them to the next jail??? Can you believe it???

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Apr 8, 10, 01:30 #63

Fairness:

What do you all think should happen and why? The figs
are not nearly as high as the initial comment on this stream. It is
currently being mooted that 12% of the value of any claim will be a
fair sum. There is also the question of proof of ownership.
Documentation rarely survives due to the conflicts in this period, but
there are other ways to prove previous ownership such as alternative
documents to deeds and even, the memories of those still living in the
locality.

It happened, it's over. The state disappeared and was replaced by a
communist state which meant that there was no private ownership...for
anyone. The communist state then went through a transformation, and
privatization occurred during which time quite a bit of real estate
was transferred into private hands. It's not fair, to anyone, but
that's what happened. People who fled or left or didn't come back
during communism decided to no longer be members of that society, and
missed out on privatization. No one won under communism.

The people that lived through 50 years of communism, some of which had
everything taken from them and now only have the block apartment that
they got from the state, that's one of the evils of communism played
out. It's not fair, but that's what happened. It's over and done with
now. Poles are now getting back on their feet, and there is no reason
to pay people that skipped out on 50 years of socialist bliss that
missed out on their free block apartment.

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Apr 8, 10, 01:54 #64

To complicate things even more Jewish property in Nazi-occupied Poland was confiscated by Germans at the beginning of the war, so technically all properties left after the war were consider "mienie poniemieckie" (German property) and taken by the new communist Polish state as a war compensation. And, if I'm not mistaken, Germany paid in 1956 (?) reparations to the Jewish owners for those properties lost in Poland. So how we are now to know what was paid off already and what was not?

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Apr 8, 10, 02:11 #65

Seanus:

Enkidu, that's just a flaming comment. They lost it because the Nazis destroyed it so don't be so absurd! It is not Poland's fault that Hitler and Stalin did what Piłsudski suspected they might.

Why don't you pay all the reparations out of the interests of justice and humanity?

What????

Why don't those nations that destroyed Poland compensate Poland for the interest of justice of humanity? If we're going to go down that road.

Poland lost 1/3 of its land in WWII, millions of its citizens including 3 million non-Jews, and Poland saw the two nations that destroyed Poland built into powerhouses by either foreign help, Marshall Plan for Germany, or in the case of Russia because of all the slave nations forced to give tribute to Moscow that Moscow owned as compensation for its help in fighting Hitler.

Because of tons of sympathetic Newspaper, Radio and movie imagery of suffering Jews during and after WWII, the World powers set up Israel for Jews (which I support) and since 1948 US "aid" and German guilt money have been going into the Israeli treasury to compensate the Jewish people. That combined amount of money must be over a Trillion dollars if you adjust for interest and inflation. Not to mention continuous sympathy for Jews for decades after Israel was born.

What did Poland get? Just mass lies about how those "terrible Poles" should compensate Jews because Poland is a "terrible anti-semitic country" even though for ONE THOUSAND YEARS most Jews CHOSE to live in Poland.

Also as a person of Polish descent who grew up in America, there have been Jews on this forum telling me that "I AM NOT REALLY POLISH". They say I am American since most of my family and myself were born in America. Technically they are correct!!! I am American first and foremost!

So WHY do we keep hearing about "Jewish claims for compensation" from Poland today? Since Jews have lived in Poland for ONE THOUSAND YEARS, shouldn't they be considered to be POLES and NOT JEWS??

TheOtherThreads: 5 Posts: 1,441 Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂	Edited by: TheOther Apr 8, 10, 02:20 #66
MediaWatch: Marshall Plan for Germany Only after they gave the Morgenthau Plan to exterminate the Germans by starvation a try until 1947, that is.

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Apr 8, 10, 02:23 #67

MediaWatch:

Why don't those nations that destroyed Poland compensate Poland for the interest of justice of humanity? If we're going to go down that road.

Er, they did.

MediaWatch:

Marshall Plan for Germany,

Poland was offered aid under that plan. Poland rejected that aid. Your decision, your loss.

MediaWatch:

So WHY do we keep hearing about "Jewish claims for compensation" from Poland today? Since Jews have lived in Poland for ONE THOUSAND YEARS, shouldn't they be considered to be POLES and NOT JEWS??

I hear the word 'Jews' in connection with restitution claims far far more from Poles than from anybody else.
One thing though, why do some many Poles love to talk about how Jews killed Poles after the war? As you say, that ethnic group had been in Poland for a thousand years.

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Apr 8, 10, 02:26 #68

Harry:

enkidu:
Minus maintenance/rebuilding costs for the 63 years.

The rent would more than cover the maintenance. Obviously any rebuilding costs would need to be paid by the recovering owners (less the surplus left over from deducting the maintenance costs from the rent).

Exactly what I thought. Private ownership shall be considered a sanctity in Poland. It shall be returned.
Take under consideration some exploratory house in the Warsaw that was owned by some Jew before the war. It has got some real value now.
There are high probability that this house was leveled to the ground during the war. Poland's government rebuilt it after the war. Cost of this work shall be deducted from the final compensation. Also maintenance cost like the garbage removal, painting, de-frosting, taxes etc for the 63 years shall be deducted from the due amount. Basically - the Polish government cared for abandoned property and it would be unjust to presume that they did it for free.
On the other hand - they earn some money from the rent for the 63 years. This sum shall be added to the final sum of compensation.
Basically - somebody shall employ some calculator.

HarryThreads: 60 Posts: 8,191 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂	Apr 8, 10, 02:30 #69
enkidu: Basically - somebody shall employ some calculator. On that we agree. Pity the Polish government thinks otherwise.

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Apr 8, 10, 02:34 #70

Harry:

Er, they did.

How so?

Harry:

I hear the word 'Jews' in connection with restitution claims far far more from Poles than from anybody else.

Maybe you should see a doctor about that. You know, those hearing aids little toys nowadays are amazing.

Harry:

One thing though, why do some many Poles love to talk about how Jews killed Poles after the war?

We have myriad of threads on PF about this very topic already. Don't need another one, thank you.

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Apr 8, 10, 02:38 #71

Bratwurst Boy:

I just doubt more and more living in the prussian part of the partitions was the "living hell" some Poles like to see it:

Still doesn't change the fact that your nation took part in a partition of a sovereign country and indulged in a blatant act of self aggrandizement, does it. Do you regret that? Could it be that living under a foreign power was hell in itself? If you're indicative of German sentiment on these issues then these sorts of comments simply show that Germans still have an underlying superiority complex and probably reminisce fondly about the good old days of German hegemony. You try to smoke and mirror that by holding yourself out as the purveyor of truth but read between the lines of what you're saying and your agenda, at least to me, is quite clear.

The fact that Poles purportedly prospered under the Prussian yoke says more about Polish resilience and ability to live under occupation than it does anything about Prussian administration. In any event, it matters not, because, again, Poland was partitioned by Germany and there is no defence or mitigatory circumstance that can justify or excuse that act, unless of course you could say that it was a reasonable act of self defence and the measures taken in defence were not excessive vis a vis the threat posed. As soon as you face the facts rather than try to excuse the actions of your country's past with some disingenuous bunk about it being good for Polish people the sooner the last shreds of the rift between Poland and Germany can be healed.

TheOther:

BB, there are always two different versions of history: the one that is accepted worldwide and the other one that is written by politicians of a country. Poland is no exception in this respect.

From reading some of your posts you seem to have a distinct grudge against Poland and tend to disagree with any shard of history that is objectively sympathetic to Poland. I find this strange, given that you are purportedly the son of a Pole.

Chill out a bit and don't believe all that you were taught in high school history here in oz regarding Poland. In my grade 12 history book there was a picture and caption of Polish cavalry on maneouvres. The caption said it was Polish cavalry preparing to charge German tanks. No matter how hard I tried to say otherwise, my teacher maintained the book was right! The accepted history isn't always the more correct one.

What is the history that is accepted worldwide regarding Poland? Are you saying that acceptability is attained if the majority says so?

TheOther:

Sokrates and a few others are rather hopeless sometimes... :)

Ha ha. In the sense that he seems to love his homeland and defends it, though a little vociferously sometimes?

Bratwurst Boy:

I mean I can accept that those stories were told from the parents and teachers to the children to rally all Poles

Are these like the 'stories' where in the past your country saw fit to try to kill off the Polish people, and not only kill them off but deliver death in a fashion that let the dying know pain and suffering. Perhaps you could share some stories of why your Germany thought it was ok to torture children? Could you say something like it can't have been that bad because all those children went to heaven and all those German soldiers did was simply speed their little souls on their way?

Don't whine about negative stories regarding Prussia/Germany, because at the end of the day if your country in the past hadn't gone down the path it had, those stories wouldn't be told, would they?

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Apr 8, 10, 02:50 #72

Harry:

MediaWatch:
Why don't those nations that destroyed Poland compensate Poland for the interest of justice of humanity? If we're going to go down that road.

Harry:
Er, they did.

MediaWatch:

LOL!!!!!!!!!! That's crazy!!!

MediaWatch:
Marshall Plan for Germany,

Harry
Poland was offered aid under that plan. Poland rejected that aid. Your decision, your loss.

MediaWatch:
Poland didn't reject that plan because Warsaw was not controlled by Warsaw. It was controlled by MOSCOW. Duh!

MediaWatch:
So WHY do we keep hearing about "Jewish claims for compensation" from Poland today? Since Jews have lived in Poland for ONE THOUSAND YEARS, shouldn't they be considered to be POLES and NOT JEWS??

Harry:
I hear the word 'Jews' in connection with restitution claims far far more from Poles than from anybody else.
One thing though, why do some many Poles love to talk about how Jews killed Poles after the war? As you say, that ethnic group had been in Poland for a thousand years.

Harry with that kind of answer that proves to me you have NEVER read an ethnic Jewish paper. Read Jewish newspapers like "Forward" or "The Jewish Press"

The "Jewish Press" ethnic newspaper SPECIFICALLY talks about Jewish claims against Poland and that "time is running out" for Poland to "compensate Jews".

Read some ethnic Jewish newspapers Harry. See it for yourself.

Everything in those newspapers is about "Polish this" and "Jewish that".

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 8, 10, 03:11 #73

Ozi Dan:

Don't whine about negative stories regarding Prussia/Germany, because at the end of the day if your country in the past hadn't gone down the path it had, those stories wouldn't be told, would they?

That's another thing Poles love to do, mixing a modern, enlightened country like Prussia with Nazi-Germany.
In case you didn't know it but Hitler let Prussia dissolve and take over because he couldn't rule there legally and that was before the allies had the 'smart' idea in '47.

Many war, and in your case partition stories, are just propaganda...nothing more nothing less...a lesson still to learn for some!

PS: No need to tell a German about abused by foreign powers, land getting stolen, occupied, partitioned...these treaties were all "legal" too yes, and no Germany had no say in them either.
But somehow the Poles in Prussia seemed to develop quite nicely...whereas the Germans in what is now Poland...oopsie...

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Apr 8, 10, 03:28 #74

Bratwurst Boy:

That's another thing Poles love to do, mixing a modern, enlightement country like Prussia with Nazi-Germany.

Didn't Herr Hitler evoke the myth of Prussia as a call to arms or justification for his vision of Nazi Germany? You can't have your cake (or torte) and eat it too.

Bratwurst Boy:

In case you didn't know it but Hitler let Prussia dissolve and take over because he couldn't rule there legally and that was before the allies had the 'smart' idea in '47.

I don't get you here. Can you expand please?

Bratwurst Boy:

partition stories are just propaganda...nothing more nothing less...a lesson still to learn for some!

What's the propaganda? That they occurred? That Poland was the victim? That Poland benefitted from the partitions?

Bratwurst Boy:

PS: No need to tell a German about abused by foreign powers, land getting stolen, occupied, partitioned...these treaties were all "legal" too yes, as long Poland profited!

Why can't I tell you about these things? Does it offend you because your nation in the past did it to Poland and you don't like to hear it because you don't want to believe it, or wish to diminish the impact of it, or justify it by saying that the Poles in some notional sense benefitted from it? Again, face the facts and cop it on the chin that your country perpetrated much evil in the past rather than trying to explain it away or more obtusely, say that Poland actually gained from it.

You'll have to explain in more detail Poland 'profiting' from it as you've again lost me.

What about some of the other points I raised? Can I assume you agree and my positions prevail?

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Edited by: Harry Apr 8, 10, 03:29 #75

Bzibzioh:

How so?

Under the Potsdam treaty 15% of the reparations paid by Germany to the USSR were designated for Poland. If you lot were too pusssy to collect from the USSR, you can hardly blame the Germans for that. They paid lots of money for you, not their fault you didn't bother to collect it.

MediaWatch:

LOL!!!!!!!!!! That's crazy!!!

LOL!! OMG!!! ROFL!!! You are so
ignorant of history it is amazing!!! Like, OMG!!!

MediaWatch:

Poland didn't reject that plan because Warsaw was not controlled by Warsaw. It was controlled by MOSCOW. Duh!

Guess you should have manned up and kicked their arse, instead of kissing their arse. How many nations other than the USSR went to the Moscow Victory parade of 1945? One: Poland. But you didn't bother to go to the London parade the next year and you've been lying about not being invited ever since.

Ozi DanThreads: 21 Posts: 526 Joined: Nov 22, 07 ♂	Apr 8, 10, 03:31 #76
Bratwurst Boy: But somehow the Poles in Prussia seemed to develop quite nicely...whereas the Germans in what is now Poland...oopsie... Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.

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Apr 8, 10, 03:34 #77

Bratwurst Boy:

No need to tell a German about abused by foreign powers,

Are you referring to the "foreign powers" that Germany warred against?

Bratwurst Boy:

land getting stolen, occupied,

Germany was occupied? Why Germany would never do that to another country........

Bratwurst Boy:

partitioned.

Last country in the world that needs a lesson in being "partitioned" is Poland.

Bratwurst Boy:

Germany had no say

That seems to be the pattern with countries that start and lose wars.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 8, 10, 03:37 #78

Ozi Dan:

Didn't Herr Hitler evoke the myth of Prussia as a call to arms or justification for his vision of Nazi Germany? You can't have your cake (or torte) and eat it too.

"Myth of Prussia"???
Prussia was very much alive till Hitler took over....

Ozi Dan:

What's the propaganda? That they occurred? That Poland was the victim? That Poland benefitted from the partitions?

That Poles lived in hell, were constantly beaten, thrown out, opressed generally....I can't imagine many places at that time where a minority could hold such hate speeches, demonstrating and being published all over the place without being censored or any punishment!

Sorry, the much loved polish image of the "poor, opressed, suffering Poles under the brutal, prussian jackboot" is not washing anymore!

Ozi Dan:

You'll have to explain in more detail Poland 'profiting' from it as you've again lost me.

Ever heard of the treaty of Versailles? Don't play dumb...Potsdam??? All treaties cutting away on a sovereign country...a loser has no voice.
But you got sold out by your own class...without them there wouldn't had been any partitions.

ZIMMY:

That seems to be the pattern with countries that start and lose wars.

Listen you arse I'm not complaining as you should stop doing also. Just trying to explain
that it happened to other countries too, totally legal!

I agree that the Nazis were ****, but Prussia is another thing alltogether...and that Poles like to mix those two for anti-german propaganda purposes just stinks! You could have had it much much worse....for example if Prussia had been anything Nazi-like!

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Apr 8, 10, 03:39 #79

Ozi Dan:

you seem to have a distinct grudge against Poland and tend to disagree with any shard of history that is objectively sympathetic to Poland

I have absolutely no grudge against Poland, believe it or not. I just find it hard to accept certain historic points of view that are presented here on occasion. As an example, that Poland was occupied during the partitions instead of being annexed. The latter is a historic fact and no wishful thinking can change that. I understand though that from a patriotic and political perspective one would like to show some proof of continuity (= Poland never seized to exist) between the era before the partitions and the resurrection of Poland in 1918.

Ozi Dan:

I find this strange, given that you are purportedly the son of a Pole.

It always depends on how you were brought up, I guess. My parents never gave a hoot, and as a consequence I am by far not as patriotic or nationalistic as many of our Polish (or American) friends here.

Ozi Dan:

Are you saying that acceptability is attained if the majority says so?

No, I'm saying that history is what science has proven and agreed upon over the centuries. Sticking to my example above: if the whole world accepts that Poland's territory was annexed for many generations, then I cannot agree to a politically motivated standpoint telling me that the annexation was actually an occupation.

Ozi Dan:

In the sense that he seems to love his homeland and defends it, though a little vociferously sometimes?

In the sense that it is quite difficult to convince him even if the facts are obvious.

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Apr 8, 10, 03:39 #80

Harry:

But you didn't bother to go to the London parade the next year and you've been lying about not being invited ever since.

Once again, where is the copy of the invitation you purport exists? I have given you many months to procure it and you've come up with: an itinerary!

Once again, p. 505 of Rising '44 by Norman Davies provides the correct factual matrix and surprise, surprise, it is different to your version of events.

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Apr 8, 10, 03:53 #81

Harry:

Guess you should have manned up and kicked their arse, instead of kissing their arse. How many nations other than the USSR went to the Moscow Victory parade of 1945? One: Poland. But you didn't bother to go to the London parade the next year and you've been lying about not being invited ever since.

Oh yeah Harry the Poles should have "manned up" "and kicked the arse" of the superpower Nuclear armed Soviet Union and got themselves killed.

A lot of tough talk from somebody behind a computer who would never in a thousand life times have the balls to do anything like that.

What next Harry, are you going to say Jews should have manned up and kicked the asses of the Nazis?

And I haven't been "lying about not being invited to parades" or trying to go to any parades as you say. I live in America and you don't even know me lol

And who cares about these silly parades.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Apr 8, 10, 03:55 #82
Well...you get invited to the parade in Moscow next month....is that nothing??? ;)

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Apr 8, 10, 03:56 #83

Harry:

15% of the reparations paid by Germany to the USSR were designated for Poland. If you lot were too pusssy to collect from the USSR, you can hardly blame the Germans for that. They paid lots of money for you, not their fault you didn't bother to collect it

Considering that Britain, the U.S. and other allies were cowered by the Soviets and therefore gave up many concessions in eastern Europe, it is interesting that you feel that a destroyed Poland should have fought the Soviets for economic aid. Your bias trumps any common sense you might have had.

Harry:

you didn't bother to go to the London parade the next year and you've been lying about not being invited ever since.

Only you could have intentionally misinterpreted General Anders comments in "An Army in Exile". As a reminder, from his book:

"An invitation was, however, extended to twenty-five airmen from amongst those Polish airmen who had had so big a share in the Battle of Britain. The airmen declined, for they did not wish to represent the Polish forces at a ceremony from which the navy and the army had been excluded."

Commenting on the victory parade, Minister Harold Macmillan noted, "I shall be at the saluting stand to watch the parade. I tell you this frankly; that with all the legitimate joy and pride in every British heart will be mingled much sorrow and even shame."

Other British notables stated similar sentiments. They too understood that the Poles were unfairly rebuffed. Of course some, like you, attempt to twist the truth into a perverted pretzel.

MediaWatchThreads: 29 Posts: 1,274 Joined: Aug 30, 08 ♂	Apr 8, 10, 03:59 #84
Bratwurst Boy: Well...you get invited to the parade in Moscow next month....is that nothing??? ;) Really???????? Little ol me MediaWatch from the US is being invited to the Moscow parade next month?? Well..... um.....I don't know what to say!! LOL Oh no no that certainly isn't nothing :D That's lots and lots and lots lol

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Apr 8, 10, 04:00 #85

TheOther:

I understand though that from a patriotic and political perspective one would like to show some proof of continuity (= Poland never seized to exist) between the era before the partitions and the resurrection of Poland in 1918.

I'm unfamiliar with the term 'seized' in this context but if you mean ceased then I disagree. Having regard to the indicia of what constitutes the existance of a nation, the fact remains that Poland lost its sovereignty, and jurisdiction for self determination vested in a foreign power. The body politic ceased to exist but arguably the biological substance remained. The legality of the methodology and effect of the partitions is relative to your perspective however, and this opens another can of worms.

TheOther:

No, I'm saying that history is what science has proven and agreed upon over the centuries.

I don't think there can ever be proof in history because there is no objective arbiter to make a finding of what proof prevails over another proof. Not sure where science comes into it?

TheOther:

Sticking to my example above: if the whole world accepts that Poland's territory was annexed for many generations, then I cannot agree to a politically motivated standpoint telling me that the annexation was actually an occupation.

Don't both words apply? Unless of course we can describe the fact that a foreign power deposited agents and representatives in Poland without consent as something other than occupation?

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 8, 10, 04:02 #86

MediaWatch:

Little ol me MediaWatch from the US is being invited to the Moscow parade next month??

Erm....*gulps*....there might be a tiny misunderstanding....or you are quick and become a member of the polish army till May that is...;)

Ozi Dan:

Don't both words apply? Unless of course we can describe the fact that a foreign power deposited agents and representatives in Poland without consent as something other than occupation?

Poles in the annexed part became prussian citizens...different to an occupation.

Ozi DanThreads: 21 Posts: 526 Joined: Nov 22, 07 ♂	Apr 8, 10, 04:05 #87
Bratwurst Boy - do you regret that your nation in the past wrongfully took part in the partition of Poland?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 8, 10, 04:07 #88
Well...with hindsight it was not the nice thing to do. (And as we now know far to much hassle, Poles make mean subordinates!!! Prussians even feared a polish take over can you imagine that???) But as it was...you took or you were taken...those were the times. My question: What do you think of your ancestors who let that happen?

MediaWatchThreads: 29 Posts: 1,274 Joined: Aug 30, 08 ♂	Apr 8, 10, 04:09 #89
ZIMMY: Considering that Britain, the U.S. and other allies were cowered by the Soviets and therefore gave up many concessions in eastern Europe, it is interesting that you feel that a destroyed Poland should have fought the Soviets for economic aid. Your bias trumps any common sense you might have had. You're right ZIMMY. You tell em!

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Edited by: rychlik Apr 8, 10, 04:18 #90

Harry:

Guess you should have manned up and kicked their arse, instead of kissing their arse. How many nations other than the USSR went to the Moscow Victory parade of 1945? One: Poland. But you didn't bother to go to the London parade the next year and you've been lying about not being invited ever since.

You're an ignorant piece of s'hit. Poland was a devastated country. Whatever compensation went to Poland, Moscow got the first dibs on it. Russians are filthy thieves. Poles got some compensation but not as much as they should've. Stalin did not allow the Poles to participate in the London parades and the Brits were afraid of upsetting the Soviet Union. As well, the Soviets did not allow Poland to get any compensation after the war from the West (ex. USA).

Speaking of compensation, how much did ordinary Poles actually get? Any numbers to throw out? Something tells me I'll be disappointed by this answer.

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