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Jews sent to Polish concentration camp March 1938!!!


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sjamThreads: 5
Posts: 1,016
Joined: Jan 13, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: sjam  Nov 28, 09, 09:11    #1
Startling evidence of Polish concentration camp reported in British 'The Times' newspaper:

The Times | March 25, 1938

ANTI-JEWISH AGITATION IN POLAND
From our own correspondent
Warsaw, March 24

Jews, were to-day sent to the concentration camp at Bereza

In spite of the efforts of the authorities to check violence anti-Semitism in Poland is growing

Jews sent to a Polish run concentration camp in March 1938. Does this represent the start of the Holocaust in Poland some 18 months before the outbreak of WWII?
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,739
Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: 1jola  Nov 28, 09, 10:05    #2
Jews, were to-day sent to the concentration camp at Bereza

That is a part of a sentence. Where is the the rest?

What does the article say for the reason they were sent to this prison?

Where is this "startling" article? You obviously have it, so let's have it.

From your quotes one understands that the government was against agitation and at the same time jailing Jews.
vetalaThreads: -
Posts: 512
Joined: Jul 10, 09 ♀ 		 Nov 28, 09, 10:17    #3
So were Ukrainians. Does that mean Poles were complicit in Ukrainian Holomodor? How terrible! You opened my eyes!
TorqThreads: 65
Posts: 4,023
Joined: Apr 10, 09 Gold Member MEMBER ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 10:21    #4
Bereza Kartuska was a prison for mostly political prisoners. Overwhelming majority
of those prisoners were Poles (communists but also ONR activists), so it wasn't
like a nazi concentration-extermination camp, unless Piłsudski wanted to exterminate
his own nation.

There were also some Germans, Ukrainians and Jews among the prisoners of Bereza
Kartuska but they weren't put there because of their ethnicity. According to the
documents gathered by professor Andrzej Garlicki (University of Warsaw) the Jews,
who were imprisoned in Bereza, got there because of financial malversations and
avoiding taxes.
vetalaThreads: -
Posts: 512
Joined: Jul 10, 09 ♀ 		 Nov 28, 09, 10:29    #5
Torq
You're so naive! You're unable to see the truth! Like you said, the majority of inmates were communists and everybody knows that lots of Jews were communists! Therefore it's plain to see that it was nothing other than an insidious plan to secretely murder all Jews!
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,739
Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 10:31    #6
To Sjam, a Jewish traitor working for Gestapo, and eliminated by Polish or Jewish underground, would still be a Jew killed in the Holocaust because he was a Jew.


It is clear he is an instigator.

He starts these threads periodically.
TorqThreads: 65
Posts: 4,023
Joined: Apr 10, 09 Gold Member MEMBER ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 10:34    #7
vetala:
Therefore it's plain to see that it was nothing other than an insidious plan to secretely murder all Jews!

Oh my God... you're right... How could I be so gullible?

Thank you for opening my eyes, Vetala. Never again shall I be blinded by historical
documents, statements of witnesses and so-called common sense.
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,739
Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 12:51    #8
sjam:
Jews sent to a Polish run concentration camp in March 1938. Does this represent the start of the Holocaust in Poland some 18 months before the outbreak of WWII?

Even in your twisted mind it does not; the first Jews were sent to Dachau in 1933.
NathanThreads: 33
Posts: 1,846
Joined: Feb 13, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: Nathan  Nov 28, 09, 15:55    #9
Torq:
Bereza Kartuska was a prison for mostly political prisoners. Overwhelming majority of those prisoners were Poles


Outrageous lie, Torq!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereza_Kartuska_prison

From 1934–1937 the prison usually housed 100–500 inmates at a time. In April 1938 the number went up to 800

In early 1938, the Polish government suddenly increased the number of inmates by sending 4,500 Ukrainians to Bereza Kartuska without right of appeal.

Does it look like the majority of the inmates were Polish?

http://www.eioba.pl/a86034/bereza_kartuska_polski_sanacyjny_oboz_konce ntracyjny

Niewątpliwie pomysłodawcą utworzenia miejsca odosobnienia był prof. Leon Kozłowski, sprawujący wówczas funkcję premiera. Nie jest tajemnicą, że Leon Kozłowski pozostawał pod wpływem wzrastającej popularności faszyzmu niemieckiego i włoskiego...

PROFESSOR Leon Kozlowski - POLISH PRIME MINISTER was under influence of increasing popularity of German and Italian FASCISM - was without a doubt a master-mind behind creation of this isolation place - Polish Sanation Concentration Camp.

We wrześniu 1939 roku w obozie przebywało 7 tysięcy internowanych na rządowej detencji: 4,5 tysiąca Ukraińców i 2 tysiące Niemców, w tym wszystkim 360 kobiet.

In September 1939 there were 7,000 inmates: 4,500 Ukrainians, 2,000 Germans, including 360 women!

Wszystko to świadczy o faktycznie bardzo dużej pojemności obozu i daje podstawy do podejrzeń, że liczba więźniów z lat poprzednich była zaniżana...

Everything testifies to the fact that the camp had a huge inmate intake capacity and makes us surmise that the number of prisoners from the previous years was lowered...

Problemem jest to, że o Berezie Polacy wiedzą tyle, co Rosjanie o Katyniu, czyli prawie nic.

The problem is Polish know about Bereza Kartuska as much as Russians about Katyn, which means nothing.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,160
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 16:27    #10
I don't pretend to know the truth here but Torq is right according to the sources I have read. That was a political prisoner camp as I read an account of some wanting to put Hitler there before he unleashed his fury. There were limited referrals and it certainly didn't take the character of a concentration camp.

Nathan, he was but a professor. We all have views but who really holds the cards? They should have had the right to appeal for sure. In modern times, that much is clear. I remember doing internment as my dissertation and arguing for reasonable grounds given the sanctity of liberty and innocence until proven otherwise. Mere suspicion allows politicians to blow with the breeze of current, prevailing sentiment and rubber stamp detentions without trial.

Super translation work btw, Nathan.
jonniThreads: 26
Posts: 4,189
Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: jonni  Nov 28, 09, 16:29    #11
1jola:
That is a part of a sentence. Where is the the rest?

What does the article say for the reason they were sent to this prison?

It does seem strange, doesn't. it. Something that, if it were true, would be well known.

If it is really from The Times, it should be easy to check; their entire archive is online and searchable from their website.
TorqThreads: 65
Posts: 4,023
Joined: Apr 10, 09 Gold Member MEMBER ♂ 		Edited by: Torq  Nov 28, 09, 16:52    #12
Nathan:
Outrageous lie, Torq!

What is a lie? That it was a prison for political prisoners or that the majority
of them were Poles?

It was certainly a political prison camp and the first prisoners were Poles from Polish
political parties (PPS, ONR, KPP and SL). They were later joined by the terrorists,
child murderes and rapists from Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN).
Those Ukrainians were citizens of Polish state, mind you. It's not like we invaded Soviet
Union and captured Ukrainian Soviet citizens.

At some point the Polish citizens of Ukrainian ethnicity actually formed a majority
of Bereza's prisoners (it was in 1938/39, shortly before the war).

However...

wikipedia:
All political prisoners, including Ukrainian terrorists such as Mykola Lebed and Stefan Bandera, were freed by Polish authorities in early September 1939. The intention was to spare prisoners the trials of German captivity.

Those animals later thanked Poland by organizing ruthless massacres of Polish civilians,
slaughtering newborn babies and raping everything female. Maybe if it was a concentration
camp and if those blood-thirsty mass-murderers were actually executed, there wouldn't
be so many innocent civilian vicitms later. Who knows...
jonniThreads: 26
Posts: 4,189
Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 17:04    #13
1jola:
That is a part of a sentence. Where is the the rest?

What does the article say for the reason they were sent to this prison?

I checked it out, and it seems to have been twelve people (not exactly a mass deportation) arrested for some sort of financial activity.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,160
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 17:08    #14
I agree with Torq to an extent. Although we cannot abandon liberty and human rights at the drop of a hat, it was maybe the recognition of Piłsudki's fears, that Poland had to take active steps to weed out political prisoners and take a stand.

Nathan, they were different times, pure and simple. I like modern Ukraine as you know but we can't forget their brutality in Warsaw during WWII.
TorqThreads: 65
Posts: 4,023
Joined: Apr 10, 09 Gold Member MEMBER ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 17:14    #15
Seanus:
we can't forget their brutality in Warsaw during WWII

If it was only in Warsaw, Seanus...

Seanus:
maybe the recognition of Piłsudki's fears, that Poland had to take active steps

Of course, Poland had to take active steps - especially as the war was approaching,
the individuals who were a direct threat to Polish independence had to be detained.

Anyway - why are we even talking about Polish Ukrainian citizens here? The thread is
about Jews being sent to Bereza in march 1938 which, according to Sjam, represented
the "start of the Holocaust in Poland some 18 months before the outbreak of WWII"
(obvious nonsense).
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,160
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 17:24    #16
Political prisoner camps were logical and squared with the times. They were not extermination camps and that is the critical difference.
Grzegorz_Threads: 80
Posts: 6,104
Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 17:28    #17
sjam:
Jews sent to Polish concentration camp March 1938!!!

lol...
NikaThreads: 3
Posts: 651
Joined: Jul 21, 09 ♀ 		Edited by: Nika  Nov 28, 09, 17:38    #18
Torq:
The thread is
about Jews being sent to Bereza in march 1938 which, according to Sjam, represented
the "start of the Holocaust in Poland some 18 months before the outbreak of WWII"
(obvious nonsense).

totally agree.
This thread is a complete nonsens.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,160
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 17:46    #19
The right-wing bigots in Britain have made a habit of spreading lies and disinformation. To smear Poland with such ill-founded allegations is tantamount to libel. We have been through this BS on other threads and it cannot be countenanced, Mods.
SteveramsfanThreads: 2
Posts: 400
Joined: Nov 22, 09 ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 17:48    #20
The first Concentration Camps were started by the British in South Africa in the Boar War. They were not where people were systematically gased, they were bad places but death was a side effect not the main purpose.

In 1941 the "Nazi's" started gassing people and Concentration camp took on a new meaning.
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,739
Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 18:08    #21
Sjam was starting to loose it, so this must be the finale. It's got Jews, Holocaust, Polish concentration camps, and Bereza in one iditiotic thread.

Given his state, I'm a little worried why he didn't come back.
jonniThreads: 26
Posts: 4,189
Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 18:11    #22
Steveramsfan:
The first Concentration Camps were started by the British in South Africa in the Boar War

That's a popular myth.

In fact they were started a few years previously by the Spanish, in Cuba.
SteveramsfanThreads: 2
Posts: 400
Joined: Nov 22, 09 ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 18:16    #23
The camps in Cuba were not known as Concentration Camps until after the British ones.

The name "Concentration Camp" comes from the Boar War. That was the point of my post.
jonniThreads: 26
Posts: 4,189
Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: jonni  Nov 28, 09, 18:38    #24
Steveramsfan:
The camps in Cuba were not known as Concentration Camps until after the British ones.

Actually the other way round.

The Spanish ones were called Reconcentration Camps - reconcentrados. The British, during the Boer War got the idea from the Spanish.
SteveramsfanThreads: 2
Posts: 400
Joined: Nov 22, 09 ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 18:48    #25
I think you will find "reconcentrados" was the name of the people kept in these camps.
TheOtherThreads: 4
Posts: 1,439
Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 18:51    #26
Steveramsfan:
They were not where people were systematically gased, they were bad places but death was a side effect not the main purpose.

Still, does it matter how you are killed? Beaten to death, starved or gassed?
SteveramsfanThreads: 2
Posts: 400
Joined: Nov 22, 09 ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 18:53    #27
You missed the point. Never mind.
jonniThreads: 26
Posts: 4,189
Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 18:54    #28
Steveramsfan:
the name of the people kept in these camps

Yes indeed. The name for the camps was reconcentración
TheOtherThreads: 4
Posts: 1,439
Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂ 		 Nov 28, 09, 19:05    #29
Steveramsfan:
You missed the point

Your point being? That being killed in a British concentration camp by starvation/ disease is more humane than being killed in a gas chamber? Don't get me wrong - what the Nazis did is unspeakable. I'm just questioning your argumentation: They were not where people were systematically gased, they were bad places but death was a side effect not the main purpose.
SteveramsfanThreads: 2
Posts: 400
Joined: Nov 22, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: Steveramsfan  Nov 28, 09, 19:06    #30
That was the name of the order that brought all of the non-rebels into the Spanish Cities or Towns. They were not actual camps like the ones in South Africa. Reconcentración was to remove the food and shelter of the rebels by destroying the non-rebels villages.

The British camps were to "concentrate" all the Boar fighters wives and children into a single location to force the fighters to give up. They just forgot about how to feed and look after them when the tactic did not work.

hmmm, they also forgot about what to do when Saddam was toppled in Iraq.

Proper Prior Planning Prevents **** Poor Performance. The 7 P's

TheOther:
Your point being? That being killed in a British concentration camp by starvation/ disease is more humane than being killed in a gas chamber? Don't get me wrong - what the Nazis did is unspeakable. I'm just questioning your argumentation: They were not where people were systematically gased, they were bad places but death was a side effect not the main purpose.

My point was.....

Concentration camp did not mean the Holocaust until after 1941.

Did you read the start of this thread?
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