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Katyn. What is next?


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ConstantineKThreads: 35
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 Apr 3, 10, 14:22    #1
Yesterday the Wajda's film "Katyn" was aired on the Russian state television channel. So, now I am anxious to know what else will be invented by the Russophobes of this forum to claim that Russia raises obstacles on the way of mutual reconciliation with Poland. My point is that however prudent we, Russians, may be in this affair, our shrewish neighbours will find some lacks and plausible excuses for new complaints. Should this happen, and I have a confidence that it will, we shall see that it is Polish government who rejects the possibility of peace between Russia and Poland.

SeanusThreads: 22
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 Apr 3, 10, 14:29    #2
CK, I'm a fan of letting bygones be bygones and burying the hatchet but there are many in Poland that won't let sleeping dogs lie. You have to accept that as it's a reality here.

Besides, what goes around comes around and things will come back at you. Look at the Serbian government's recent act in relation to Srebrenica. Nearly 15 years on. My personal belief is that those who carried out the Katyń massacre should have been tried a long time ago and we see the failings of judicial and intergovernmental processes in not procuring the right documentation. What use is punishment now, other than to punish a wrongdoing? (noble in itself but not timely).

Tusk will not reject a lasting peace with Russia. Why would he do that? It is barking little poodle, Kaczyński, that is the problem in that regard. I'm happy that the current Russian administration has opened up and furnished those that need them with documents.
SeanBMThreads: 41
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 Apr 3, 10, 14:34    #3
ConstantineK:
Yesterday the Wajda's film "Katyn" was aired on the Russian state television channel.

How was it received?

ConstantineK:
My point is that however prudent we, Russians, may be in this affair, our shrewish neighbours will find some lacks and plausible excuses for new complaints.

As you know Europe/Russia are old and we have many histories, some good some bad.
All neighbouring countries have hatchets to burry, time is the only healer.
I think people here tend to have a very good opinion of the Russian people in general.



ConstantineK:
we shall see that it is Polish government who rejects the possibility of peace between Russia and Poland.

I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.
king polkagamon  Apr 3, 10, 16:14    #4
Did polish TV air the 1614 and the Dead Souls?
ConstantineKThreads: 35
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 Apr 28, 10, 21:53    #5
Apr 28, 10, 22:09 - Thread attached on merging:
Katyn tragedies. Warning voice of clear sense.

No matter how often I read this forum I am no further towards understanding all this hysteria both in Poland and Russia. But, most of all, it seems to me that minds of many Russians who write here all these...condolences are very seriously deranged.
If all these manifestations are sincere, I cannot understand why we grieve over our enemies. If they were a joke, apart from the fact they are too long, it was thrown away upon me: how you manage to keep this tone full of appealing gravity?
Few words to warn you, words of man whose mind is still clear and heart - cold.

1. Poles are our natural and genuine enemy. No matter how often and sincer you will express your condolences, they will always keep fig in their pocket.

2. Poles are weak, envious, conceited people. All these lacks make them an easy pray of our enemies of higher level. They will always try to use them against Russians natural and lawfull interests throughout Europe.

3. Poles have natural bias toward theatricality and affected gestures. They will profane their own tragedy and your sympathy, degrading both to the level of cheap vaudeville.

Now, my dear friends, I have nothing further to add. You can decide yourself. But please don't let them fool you.
1jolaThreads: 33
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 Apr 29, 10, 08:29    #6
ConstantineK:
Yesterday the Wajda's film "Katyn" was aired on the Russian state television channel. So, now I am anxious to know what else will be invented by the Russophobes of this forum to claim that Russia raises obstacles on the way of mutual reconciliation with Poland.


You think that showing the film is a way to reconciliation between nations? Are you a child?

Seanus:
It is barking little poodle, Kaczyński, that is the problem in that regard. I'm happy that the current Russian administration has opened up and furnished those that need them with documents.

Clearly, you have no concept of has happened. Out of 186 documents in the Russian investigation ended in 2004, 116 of them are secret.

ConstantineK:
3. Poles have natural bias toward theatricality and affected gestures.

Wrong. We understand theatrics and we are waiting for decissions by Russian courts not coriographed news flashes. See the opinion of Memorial on this, Kostia.

So far, the Russian courts are not sure if there was even a crime no matter what your PM says. Now, we are waiting to see what they say now. You should research the legal decissions in this case before starting this thread.

Do yoy really think that the Russians will:

1. Rehabilitate the murdered men?
2. Release the investigation documents?
3. Call it a war crime?

I won't even mention opening the Soviet archives.
skysoulmateThreads: 41
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Edited by: skysoulmate  Apr 29, 10, 09:12    #7
So after two threads were merged you true colors became obvious and your feelings of "reconciliation" became very clear.

On one thread you said:

ConstantineK:
Yesterday the Wajda's film "Katyn" was aired on the Russian state television channel. So, now I am anxious to know what else will be invented by the Russophobes of this forum to claim that Russia raises obstacles on the way of mutual reconciliation with Poland. My point is that however prudent we, Russians, may be in this affair, our shrewish neighbours will find some lacks and plausible excuses for new complaints. Should this happen, and I have a confidence that it will, we shall see that it is Polish government who rejects the possibility of peace between Russia and Poland.


...while on a different thread you said:

ConstantineK:
Apr 28, 10, 22:09 - Thread attached on merging:
Katyn tragedies. Warning voice of clear sense.

No matter how often I read this forum I am no further towards understanding all this hysteria both in Poland and Russia. But, most of all, it seems to me that minds of many Russians who write here all these...condolences are very seriously deranged.
If all these manifestations are sincere, I cannot understand why we grieve over our enemies. If they were a joke, apart from the fact they are too long, it was thrown away upon me: how you manage to keep this tone full of appealing gravity?
Few words to warn you, words of man whose mind is still clear and heart - cold.

1. Poles are our natural and genuine enemy. No matter how often and sincer you will express your condolences, they will always keep fig in their pocket.

2. Poles are weak, envious, conceited people. All these lacks make them an easy pray of our enemies of higher level. They will always try to use them against Russians natural and lawfull interests throughout Europe.

3. Poles have natural bias toward theatricality and affected gestures. They will profane their own tragedy and your sympathy, degrading both to the level of cheap vaudeville.


Now, my dear friends, I have nothing further to add. You can decide yourself. But please don't let them fool you.
 


So which is it?

A distant family member of ours was murdered in Katyń by your NKVD henchmen, the same organization your prime minister was a part of (although then called KGB), yet I don't hate the Russian people, neither do I exclaim that "Russians are our natural and genuine enemy".

I distrust the many types of governments your country has had which often resulted in many nations being raped and pillaged whether under the tsar, the commissar and even now under the president & prime minister marriage of convenience.

So 70 years after those murders your government finally releases all documents and shows a movie on your national tv. Wow, you're right, Poles are so ungrateful... You murder thousands of them in collaboration with (molotov-ribbentrop) Hitler or Gitler if you prefer and years later those pesky Poles still remember... So ungrateful.

Forgivness involves truthfulness and that process has just started... 70 years later...
jwojcieThreads: 3
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Edited by: jwojcie  Apr 29, 10, 12:11    #8
Ladies and Gentlemens, look here at great @ConstantineK,
the Polonophob in constant search for Russophobes :-) :-) :-)

Pathetic waste of time... You will always find some if you are looking for them. Then you can feast on them and amplify your own phobias... Strange hobby...
ZIMMYThreads: 10
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 Apr 30, 10, 16:35    #9
MareGaea:
"in a topic so difficult for the Poles" yeah, what exactly don't you understand about SEVENTY YEARS AGO?



Is that the same answer you'd give to the Jewish holocaust?.......that it was so long ago?

When I go to Poland this fall, I'll buy you and Sokrates a couple of drinks; of course you guys have to pay for your own transportation.
MareGaeaThreads: 45
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Edited by: MareGaea  Apr 30, 10, 16:43    #10
ZIMMY:
Is that the same answer you'd give to the Jewish holocaust?.......that it was so long ago?


Yes, I would say: we learned from it and will never forget it, but now it's time to move on. And in fact that's what I've always been saying.

And about that drink: if you come do Dublin I'd me most happy to have a pint with ya, but I'm not gonna go all the way to PL for just one drink, you'll understand :) And besides, I don't think that Sokidoki fragile constitution can endure a drink ;)

>^..^<

M-G (but thanks for the offer anyway)
ConstantineKThreads: 35
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 May 1, 10, 16:54    #11
Ah! All my assertions have nothing with polonophoby or searching any traits in national polish characters which may excuse Stalin's deeds in Katyn. But, in contrast with you on this forum, my mind is clear and cold, I feel no any excess of affection. Nevertheless, Katyn was crime. However:

1. This mass killing should be treated as Justifiable homicide. Nobody in SU, under those circumstances, would like to have 20000 soldiers behaind a back. We should tale into consideration Stalin's expirience of civil war when hordes of White Poles and Czech each moment were ready fo insurgence
2. Nobody would like to feed such mass of people in case of war with Hitler.

Taking into account all these circumstances you should agree with me, "bullet in the head" was a best and sole solution for Stalin.

We shoul forgive and forget!
Drac90Threads: 2
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Joined: Apr 23, 10
 May 1, 10, 17:02    #12
ConstantineK:
Justifiable homicide
? are you retarded?
I personaly think that UPA crimes should be taken care of with more atention that Katyń, many of Russians died there too(in Katyń). When in Katyń stalin wanted to kill only those who could rise against him on Kresy UPA was killing all polish civilians. Its for me not understandable why our gov is so blind and this. But "Justifiable homicide"
sounds like insult
grubasThreads: 20
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 May 1, 10, 17:12    #13
ConstantineK:
Taking into account all these circumstances you should agree with me, "bullet in the head" was a best and sole solution for Stalin.

Bullet in the head would be the best solution for you.Wait,you ain't worth a bullet, to hang on the tree would be just fine.
We didn't kill this guys and we could and probably should
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55tquCLbQZA
ConstantineKThreads: 35
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 May 1, 10, 17:28    #14
Well, really, "justifiable" may be too wrong expression. But anyway, this is crime you can explain, certaily there were many circumstances in that time which may render excuse. Here you give aperfect example of UPA actions during WWII. No doubts, both these homicides cannot be compared between each other. While one was "enlighted" killing, another may serve as good pattern of most atrocious, barbarian and wild deed.
Drac90Threads: 2
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Edited by: Drac90  May 1, 10, 17:38    #15
Crime is crime, but its not "Russia crime" but SU and Stalin, Russia offcials by hiding archives are "defending Stalinism" many of Russians died there too. We cant affort to explain or justify Katyń crimes right?

yet i agree that those UPA animals should taken care of first and Ukraine should pay reparations before Russia the diffrence is enourmous

and if Ukraine dont have enough money to pay i came up with perfect idea just now, They will give away "Województwo Lwowskie" and polish gov will give to poles ground there as refund xd

Selling ground is nothin new there anyway
BorrkaThreads: 49
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 May 1, 10, 20:13    #16
A good provocation can be a beginning of some interesting thread.
However, the Kostik's one is neither "good" nor funny.
It's tasteless in some typical Russian way and should be ignored - killing innocent people makes no material for "ratings" of crime .
ConstantineKThreads: 35
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 May 1, 10, 20:36    #17
Really Borka, you are intoleraible with all this crap. Who have said about score? Here is the implaceable difference between our positions. You and your friends think about man as some sort of divine creature full of merits while my understanding is more mechanical, more scientific, from you permission. Rid off all this Milton's crap, there is no any war over his soul between evil and good, there is no any God's precise gift. Man is just a protein sack full of inner organs, with stomach as worthiest one. Killing this piece of flesh you render him a good service. Ha, even from your point of view, Katyn may be viewed as a good job. By one act, Stalin magnified the number of Polish saints, all in all, 20000 plus is a good score!
Drac90Threads: 2
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 May 1, 10, 20:58    #18
ConstantineK:
By one act, Stalin magnified the number of Polish saints, all in all, 20000 plus is a good score!

cool logic, why wont you become a hero and kill yourself then? :D
joepilsudskiThreads: 44
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 May 1, 10, 20:59    #19
Seanus:
Look at the Serbian government's recent act in relation to Srebrenica.


Interesting article on Srebrenica:

http://srpska-mreza.com/Bosnia/Srebrenica/hoax.html
WroclawThreads: 77
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 May 1, 10, 21:07    #20
ConstantineK:
This mass killing should be treated as Justifiable homicide. Nobody in SU, under those circumstances, would like to have 20000 soldiers behaind a back.


Are you talking about the same 20,000 who were rounded up, unarmed and prisoners.

You make it seem that everything took place in a day. It didn't.

What happened at Katyn was planned meticulously, took place over a period of time, and can only be justified by you. I've yet to hear 'job well done' from any rational thinking person.
JedThreads: -
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 May 1, 10, 21:11    #21
Drac90:
why wont you become a hero and kill yourself then?


Looks like a good idea.
VelundThreads: 1
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 May 1, 10, 21:40    #22
skysoulmate:
A distant family member of ours was murdered in Katyń by your NKVD henchmen, the same organization your prime minister was a part of (although then called KGB)....


Yes, our prime minister worked some time for a organization that is responsible for numerous violations of human rights, and of course was created by Polish guy from a noble family, Feliks Dzieræyński, that in their youth attended same gymnasium as another well known Polish guy, Józef Pi³sudski. ;) Both Poles had experience how Siberian prisons looks from inside... Both hated Russian Empire. But one created an organization to exterminate (mostly Russian) people that does not fit to new state they tried to create (very dissimilar to hated Russian Empire), another tried to exterminate that state. ;) Both failed, as seen from a long time. There is numerous monuments for both now, but in different places...

But, unfortunately, after death of their creator, this well working organization come to hands of one nervous guy from Georgia (Georgians are nervous guys, you know, probably anyone seen how those guys ate their ties if something goes wrong). And that nervous guy used it to kill some compatriots of creator of such greatly built organization...

And then, we was informed that it is Russians responsible for everything. ;)
SokratesThreads: 19
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 May 1, 10, 21:51    #23
Velund:
another tried to exterminate that state. ;)

Pi³sudski tried to destroy Russia???
VelundThreads: 1
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 May 1, 10, 22:06    #24
Sokrates:
Pi³sudski tried to destroy Russia???


Hm... I understand that Wikipedia is not very good source of information, but sometime it can be used to find references to much better sources. ;)

From Wikipedia:

Early in his political career, Pi³sudski became a leader of the Polish Socialist Party. Concluding, however, that Poland's independence would have to be won by force of arms, he created the Polish Legions. In 1914 he anticipated the outbreak of a European war, the Russian Empire's defeat by the Central Powers, and the Central Powers' defeat by the western powers.[7] When World War I broke out, he and his Legions fought alongside the Austro-Hungarian and German Empires to ensure Russia's defeat.
SokratesThreads: 19
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 May 1, 10, 22:29    #25
Velund:
Hm... I understand that Wikipedia is not very good source of information, but sometime it can be used to find references to much better sources. ;)

Ah so he tried to defeat Russia, he never wanted to or strived for destruction of Russia thats a pretty big difference, as for Dzieræyński i'm not sure i or anyone could figure the man out.
VelundThreads: 1
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 May 1, 10, 22:34    #26
Sokrates:
he never wanted to or strived for destruction of Russia


They stirve for decomposition of Russian Empire to a small national states. Not much difference.
SokratesThreads: 19
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 May 1, 10, 22:38    #27
Velund:
They stirve for decomposition of Russian Empire to a small national states. Not much difference.

Pi³sudski went all out to reclaim Poland and historic polish territories taken by Russia, everything else was a secondary objective so no he didnt aim to destroy Russia and Russian Empire and Russia are not synonymous.

Depriving Russia of the territories it occupied hardly destroyed it.
IronsideThreads: 59
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 May 1, 10, 22:57    #28
ConstantineK:
our shrewish neighbours will find some lacks and plausible excuses

come on stop this nonsense ....
VelundThreads: 1
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 May 1, 10, 23:17    #29
Sokrates:
Depriving Russia of the territories it occupied hardly destroyed it.


Point of view changes very much in this question. ;) And meaning of term "occupation" too.
As I can see, many people does not distinguish occupation from annexion. ;)

Let's agree at least on point that Pilsudski never wished anything good to Russia in any form, being it Russian Empire or Soviet Union. ;) And plan of separation of Russia to a number of national states with constant conflicts between them to assure further security of Polish eastern borders didn't promised anything good to russian people.

But initial plan was brave... Competitors of Poland destroy each other, **** and blood everywhere, and then noble pan Józef, on a white horse...... ;)
SokratesThreads: 19
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 May 1, 10, 23:23    #30
Velund:
Point of view changes very much in this question. ;)

Absolutely, for example from the Nazis point of view grabbing a newborn child by its legs and smashing its skull on the edge of the table was nothing short of cleaning up the ubermenschen genepool, from a normal human beings point of view it was a disgusting murder.

My point is your point of view is pointless:) I like playing with words but we're both smart people dont bring buckets-o-crap to the table.

Velund:
Let's agree at least on point that Pilsudski never wished anything good to Russia

Absolutely, he saw Russia as Polands enemy, wasnt wrong either.

Velund:
And plan of separation of Russia to a number of national states with constant conflicts between them to assure further security of Polish eastern borders didn't promised anything good to russian people.

Nope, he actually planned a federation of national states under polish lead as means of protecting each other from Russia and Germany, given that Europe entered its fascist period the project had no hope however.

Velund:
But initial plan was brave... Competitors of Poland destroy each other, **** and blood everywhere, and then noble pan Józef, on a white horse...... ;)

The first part of it worked too, Poland beat off all comers, Germany, Russia, Czechoslovakia, Lithuania and Ukraine, the second part, the regional alliance was however impossible to achieve.

If you really want to bash Pi³sudski over something try his military planning, he was responsible for the poor state of the polish army in 39 but as a statesman he was all the way up there with the european elites.


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