Katyn. What is next?

POLAND . The Unofficial Guide

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May 12, 10, 21:35 #61

If you want to understand what the Polish side is waiting for, read the letter from Russia's Memorial Society to Russia's president. The whole letter is worth reading but here are the main stumbling bloks to reconciliation we are hearing so much about lately:

Respected Mr. President, in this connection we urge you to use your authority to support the following urgent measures:

1. The rescinding of the decision of the Interdepartmental Commission for the Protection of State Secrets dated 22nd December 2004 regarding the classification of materials of the ‘Katyn’ criminal investigation №159.

2. The resumption of the criminal investigation into the Katyn case, with the aim of identification in accordance with legal procedure of all individuals who were victims of execution, both prisoners of war and detainees; establishing (in conjunction with the prosecutorial authorities of Ukraine and Belarus) the places of burial of those executed who were prisoners held in jails in western Ukraine and western Belarus; identification in accordance with legal procedure of all those guilty, including those who took the decision to shoot Polish prisoners of war and other convicts, as well as those who organized and carried out this criminal operation at all levels of authority, by means of an accurate and complete legal qualification of the crimes committed, in accordance with the norms of both Russian and international law.

3. Individual rehabilitation, in accordance with Russian law on the rehabilitation of victims of political repression, of all those who were shot by decision of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of 5th March 1940.

http://www.rightsinrussia.info/home/hro-org-in-english-1/stalin/memori al-on-katyn

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May 13, 10, 00:22 #62

Borrka:

Perhaps we used to be occupants 400 years ago, at least in accordance with todays criteria (what is rather ahistoric way of thinking) .
Even our Polish pre-wwII anti-minorities attitude is absolutely not to compare which Russian chauvinism, Chechen wars and all that what's going on in Ukraine today.

So "mirror looking" is OK with me but not forgetting the real proportions and the time-line.

we are not imperialistic coz we dont have power to be :) Im absolutly sure that if we were in Russia place now we would took Lwów for exemple in some way ;D being imperialistic is writen in our DNA :D we are soooo similar to russians thats why i like them :D (as long as their army dont knock to my door)

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May 13, 10, 07:49 #63

Velund:

But wounds heals much faster if dirt is removed from them. ;) I hope with opening last volume of archives about Katyn we will clean one of wounds. But it will be fair to clean others as well.

1jola:

Russia's President just handed the Polish side 67 of the 116 volumes from the Russian Katyn investigation(1990-2004) that were previously not declassified. There were 183 volumes altogether.

Let me correct that, since I got is all wrong. There were 183 volumes in the 1990-2004 Russian investigation. 116 are secret. 67 volumes, which were known to the Polish side, were turned over last week. We are basically were we started before we started declaring love and cooperation. Should the Russian side decide to declassify what amounts to the bulk of the documents, we will have a sign of willingness to improve our relations. There is more to it than just handing over the documents and you can read about the issues here:
http://www.rightsinrussia.info/home/hro-org-in-english-1/stalin/memori al-on-katyn

noreenbThreads: 4 Posts: 1,082 Joined: Apr 22, 09 ♀	Edited by: noreenb Jun 6, 10, 22:20 #64
Nothing. Just nothing. A word Russophobes exists just in some writers mind I hope.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Jun 7, 10, 19:45 #65
Why post nothing then? Last week, the Russian courts refused to reopen the case because all the perps are dead. So much for the oozing love and solidarity. If you are not sure what that means at least read post #61. Should Mr. Putin want to make goody, there are other means of solving this block in our countries' relations available. They are studying the problem.

noreenbThreads: 4 Posts: 1,082 Joined: Apr 22, 09 ♀	Edited by: noreenb Jun 7, 10, 20:43 #66
Because Katyń was a place of an unimaginary pain and putting any information about it in public are jimho not necessary. I am not a person who is able to discuss anything about Katyń, because I have no personal interest in it except purely historical. That is why I said "nothing".

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Jun 7, 10, 20:55 #67
noreenb: I am not a person who is able to discuss anything about Katyń, because I have no personal interest in it Goodbye.

nottThreads: 6 Posts: 1,271 Joined: Jun 2, 10 ♂	Jun 8, 10, 00:14 #68
thanks for fast reaction, Mod. Happy cuddling with kostus

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08 ♂	Jun 8, 10, 00:25 #69
nott: thanks for fast reaction, Mod. Happy cuddling with kostus Yes, I was a bit worried about the language you used. Not accustomed to that from you. So, when do they expect full disclosure of the Katyn docs? I suppose with all the international attention surrounding the demise of Kaczynski, one would say that pressure is riding high and the Russians will succumb to it? >^..^< M-G (nuff said)

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Jun 8, 10, 00:32 #70
MareGaea: Yes, I was a bit worried about the language you used. Not accustomed to that from you. He has been here 5 days. LOL MareGaea: So, when do they expect full disclosure of the Katyn docs? When hell freezes over.

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08 ♂	Jun 8, 10, 00:38 #71
1jola: He has been here 5 days. Sokidoki was here two days and had already cursed everybody from here to Tokyo. Just to put things in perspective. >^..^< M-G (nuff said)

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Jun 8, 10, 07:21 #72

MareGaea:

Yes, I was a bit worried about the language you used. Not accustomed to that from you. So, when do they expect full disclosure of the Katyn docs? I suppose with all the international attention surrounding the demise of Kaczynski, one would say that pressure is riding high and the Russians will succumb to it?

There is really no pressure on Russia. Russia is the largest country in the world and can pretty much refuse to do anything it does not want to do, as well as do anything it wants to do. When you are the largest nation in the world, you can pretty much do as you please and not care about what anyone thinks.

POLENGGGsThreads: 5 Posts: 211 Joined: Apr 26, 10 ♂	Jun 8, 10, 14:50 #73
That film is shoddy. And it make the Pole looking like pusseys . No, I dont like russians

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Jun 8, 10, 19:43 #74

Listen

This has been already a past. The past for historians, for directors, I'm not even sure if for journalists.

I do not understand why is Katyń being discussed on public forum.
This is a past WE must respect. The past WE respect.

Thinking WE I also think about Russians. I do not think about

ConstantineK
Russophobes

:)

This is a past.
PAST

That has already happen.

Everything what is nearly far afield from reverence, respect and honour is not necessary.

Do live current life people, not a PAST.

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Jun 8, 10, 22:52 #75

MareGaea:

Yes, I was a bit worried about the language you used. Not accustomed to that from you.

Oh svgar, so that was just to protect my suave soul from soiling myself in public... And I suspected you didn't like the incitement to suicide, definitely ad personam.

For the future, so that I could avoid such mistakes, which were the offending phrases? 'Attention seeker' or 'orphan after the dead ideology'? Since 'w@nker' and 'sh1t' are decent and accepted elements of the British vernacular, just try some BBC.

So I am back, which will be a surprise to those who didn't know I went away. I did, slammed the door and brushed the dust from my shoes. Now, that was a retching reflex, childish decision, ostrich politics. So, welcome back, nott, we missed you so.

noreenb:

This has been already a past. The past for historians, for directors, I'm not even sure if for journalists.

I do not understand why is Katyń being discussed on public forum.
This is a past WE must respect. The past WE respect.

First thing is to know. This was (and actually is) denied.

Wouldn't be much more than a pure decency and soul washing, were it not for people like Kostus. Were he a single freak, that would be no problem either, but. But such strongly held opinions do not come from nowhere, and do not exist in void, something is feeding them still, and with a good, fat sh1t, and there are quite a few people like that person. Mor0ns, you might say, and I heartily agree, with one reason for the epithet being that they are voicing their opinions loudly. Others might be less verbose, but closer to the triggers.

The whole perestroyka thing was a top-down process, by decree, forced by circumstances. Samizdat and Solzhenicyn didn't have much say, although glory to them. Circumstances will change some time in the future, and then only the hypothetical true and full transformation will save us from another Armageddon, and this needs digging out bodies and showing them to the public. It's not so much about Poles, as about Russians and the West.

Katyn is just a token, actually, 20.000 people is small fry in the grand scheme. But it's probably the most important field indicator of what is really going on in Russia.

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