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King III. Jan Sobieski - the stopper of Turkish Janissaries!


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turkishfriendThreads: 8
Posts: 52
Joined: Aug 12, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 13, 07, 02:25    #1
Hmmm, very interesting, Sobieski stopped turks at vienna, if he didnt we would be there now :) However history is history, he was a good commander i think :) King Sobieski do you have any word to say :)
My friends look yourself well :)
Sobieski
hmm very strange he became king with election....
RonekThreads: 1
Posts: 297
Joined: Sep 4, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Ronek  Sep 13, 07, 03:05    #2
Oh we stoped your muslimforces many many times, for proof check info about keep Kamieniec Podolski.
Vienna was simply a separeted example when Turks went againts the austrians and the rest of western europe and didnt even come close to our borders... so who did austrians call?

youtube.com/watch?v=-gTNcNpEB5k

<div class="quoting">Quoting: turkishfriend

hmm very strange he became king with election.... </div>
Well we had Nihil Novi contitution since 1505 which put noble democracy in place,
I'm sory we didnt have monarchy or tyrany like the rest of countries living in the dark of middle ages.
Grzegorz_Threads: 80
Posts: 6,104
Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂ 		 Sep 13, 07, 03:15    #3
Quoting: turkishfriend
Sobieski stopped turks at vienna, if he didnt we would be there now :)


And Austrians were so gratuful that in the next century they occupied our country and finally gave us Adolf.
LukaszThreads: 73
Posts: 2,396
Joined: Sep 1, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Lukasz  Sep 13, 07, 04:26    #4
what can be interesting Sobieski didnt want to help Austrians, he had good contacts with France, and he rather prefered cooperate with them. That means, let Ottomans smash Austrians ... In Poland, kings position was weak, and our nobels prefered to help christian brothers (Austrians), so Sobieski just enforced our nobels decision. He did it in grate way ... but it was horrible mistake. Strong Ottoman empire would be problem for Russians and definately Austrians.

In separate wars against Russians, Prusians or Austrians. We would smash them ...
misiek  Sep 13, 07, 15:27    #5
History is interesting and likes to repeat.. question of time :)

Regards
plk123Threads: 30
Posts: 6,410
Joined: Aug 29, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 13, 07, 15:54    #6
Quoting: Ronek
I'm sory we didnt have monarchy or tyrany like the rest of countries living in the dark of middle ages.



still a monarchy man.

speaking of sobieski and the turks.. a few years back a saw tents and other stuff from the vienna skirmish at a special show at the Chicago Art Institute.. turks had some awesome gear.. the hussar gear was actually the other thing that i just loved from that exhibit.
turkishfriendThreads: 8
Posts: 52
Joined: Aug 12, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 14, 07, 08:25    #7
i want to attend such exhibitions but i dont have chance due to my studentness....
plk123Threads: 30
Posts: 6,410
Joined: Aug 29, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 14, 07, 13:35    #8
it was a few years ago.. i'd guess all the artifacts are back in poland.. warsaw castle.
JukrekThreads: -
Posts: 76
Joined: May 9, 08 ♂ 		 May 9, 08, 18:17    #9
How Poles saved europe

History - The Siege of Vienna 1-5

part4



part5
z_dariusThreads: 22
Posts: 5,091
Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂ 		 May 9, 08, 20:20    #10
turkishfriend:
he was a good commander i think :) King Sobieski do you have any word to say :)

Sobieski's intervention was his huge political mistake.
lesserThreads: 7
Posts: 2,014
Joined: Oct 19, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: lesser  May 10, 08, 10:26    #11
z_darius:
Sobieski's intervention was his huge political mistake.


He could also wait patiently till Turks recover their forces after capturing Vienna and attack us. Then call for German and Russian help, I don't know how Gerries but Russians are always willing to help their Slavic brothers. :)
z_dariusThreads: 22
Posts: 5,091
Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂ 		 May 10, 08, 10:36    #12
lesser:
e could also wait patiently till Turks recover their forces after capturing Vienna and attack us.

No. He should have waited for Austrians, Saxons, Germans and Turks to bleed a little longer. and then, reluctantly, hit Turks. At the time Turks wouldn't have dreamed of attacking Poland, so soon after their latest defeat.
lesserThreads: 7
Posts: 2,014
Joined: Oct 19, 07 ♂ 		 May 10, 08, 13:37    #13
z_darius:
No. He should have waited for Austrians, Saxons, Germans and Turks to bleed a little longer. and then, reluctantly, hit Turks. At the time Turks wouldn't have dreamed of attacking Poland, so soon after their latest defeat.


This calculation look so easy :) Nobody could guarantee that he would defeat the Turks in different conditions, many issues should be analyzed. Different strategical position, improved morals of Turkish army and many more.
joepilsudskiThreads: 44
Posts: 2,521
Joined: Apr 27, 07 Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 May 10, 08, 16:34    #14
Guys, Sobieski was a great Polish warrior who kicked Turk butt...you couldn't expect him to be God and know all details, twists and turns of European intigue so that he could plot a 'long term strategy for Polish dominion'...Warriors are not usually politicians.
SpavoThreads: 3
Posts: 20
Joined: Apr 1, 08 ♂ 		 May 12, 08, 09:30    #15
They're doing a movie about the battle of Vienna now, and Mel Gibson should play Sobieski O.o
szarlotkaThreads: 14
Posts: 3,340
Joined: Feb 20, 07 ♂ 		 May 12, 08, 10:02    #16
Spavo:
Mel Gibson should play Sobieski


Why not, he was Braveheart after all...

Next up Mel plays Genghis Khan
JukrekThreads: -
Posts: 76
Joined: May 9, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: Jukrek  May 12, 08, 10:34    #17
Spavo:
Mel Gibson should play Sobieski O.o


It's his movie. 3rd part, after Pasjon, Apocaliptico.

Christians vs Muslims

United Europe vs muslim world.
z_dariusThreads: 22
Posts: 5,091
Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂ 		 May 12, 08, 10:50    #18
lesser:
This calculation look so easy :) Nobody could guarantee that he would defeat the Turks in different conditions, many issues should be analyzed. Different strategical position, improved morals of Turkish army and many more.

Sure, there are no guarantees. Just like there were no guarantees when Sobieski went on the trip to Vienna. I still think the British got it worked out the best: divide and rule, which loosely would apply here.
JukrekThreads: -
Posts: 76
Joined: May 9, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: Jukrek  May 12, 08, 10:58    #19
joepilsudski:
you couldn't expect him to be God and know all details, twists and turns of European intigue so that he could plot a 'long term strategy for Polish dominion'...Warriors are not usually politicians.


HAH Sobieski wanted to stick to French. We had noble democracy in Poland and nobles decided to help Christians.

turkishfriend:
hmm very strange he became king with election....
tomekThreads: 1
Posts: 147
Joined: Jun 12, 08 ♂ 		 Jun 21, 08, 07:04    #20
turkishfriend:
hmm very strange he became king with election....

Kings were elected in Poland by the aristocrats - at its peak 20% of polands inhabitants were aristocrats (12% is the average number mentioned in history books I think)

Jukrek:
HAH Sobieski wanted to stick to French

Intrigues after Sobieskis death led to a powershift away from the Poles resulting at the end in seperation for 123 years - the Sejm was allways influenced by foreign powers in this time. The French were no saints in this, for exmple even Sobieskis wife, a french aristocrat, opposed her own son becoming the next King of Poland.

Also Austria and Russia historic enemy the Turks were weakened and both had spare military power left. And instead of invading Turkey for a change or forcing against it at least, they took Poland apart...



What did Poland learn out of it AGAIN and not for the last time?

Not to trust anybody.

We should not forget - be aware of our roots - and not become germanized, europenized or whatever.
morellaThreads: 11
Posts: 71
Joined: Feb 25, 07 ♂ 		 Jun 21, 08, 12:29    #21
History is left in History who cares...live your life and try to be happy in this short human life:)
SalomonThreads: 6
Posts: 602
Joined: Apr 7, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: Salomon  May 25, 09, 20:54    #22
I agree that beating Turks at Viena was one of the biggest Polish mistakes. Later Austria and Prussia partitioned Poland.

We can't change it, it was much better let Turks beat more Germans. Durring the battle of Viena Poles played crucial role so Poland would defend itself without problems.
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 May 25, 09, 21:18    #23
One of our saddest mistakes, Germanic nations are an issue for all of Europe, we would be better off with Turks.
CrowThreads: 365
Posts: 7,192
Joined: Feb 14, 07 Pictures: 1 ♂ 		Edited by: Crow  May 25, 09, 21:53    #24
Salomon:
I agree that beating Turks at Viena was one of the biggest Polish mistakes

Sokrates:
One of our saddest mistakes

no

easiest way sometimes isn`t best way, you should know that

If Poles didn`t hit hard Turkish invaders, Turks would definitely strenghten its positions on Balkan. Most possible- majority of Serbians, Croats, Bulgarians, Romanians, even Hungarians, today`s Slovenians... would be Islamized.

Then, don`t you worry for Germans/Austrians Poles. With or without Polish intervention, help to them would have arrived from France, Britain, Spain, other parts of western Europe. This way or another, Poland would be partioned.... Germans were/are too greedy and Russians were/are too stubborn and selfish.

After all, western Europe established cooperation with Turks and profited on the account all Balkan Slavs. In case of even bigger Turkish expanison in Europe, western Europe would profit even more. In case of Turkish expanison, occupied Slavs are those who would be practicaly tottaly destroyed.

No Poles, you didn`t misteke. God guided your elite to fulfil its duty on the invaded lands of Sarmatian south. You would be rewarded for loyalty to Christ and to Sarmatia, Poles!

There are complete nations (such are Serbs) who are still alive only because Poland was here to help us. You didn`t mistake, Poles! Serbs remembered!

once more, Thank you Poles
ZIMMYThreads: 10
Posts: 2,243
Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂ 		 May 25, 09, 23:07    #25
plk123:
a few years back a saw tents and other stuff from the vienna skirmish at a special show at the Chicago Art Institute.. turks had some awesome gear..

I took my then Italian girlfriend to that show at the Art Institute. It must have been 10 years (1999?) ago. A documentary film was also featured that showed Polish hussar history and the Vienna battle.

The "Lion of Lehistan" kicked a lot of butt in his day. Prior to the battle of Vienna, Jan was in charge of 14 previous battles. Some of his adversaries refused to fight him.
TrevekThreads: 30
Posts: 2,088
Joined: May 21, 08 ♂ 		 May 26, 09, 07:32    #26
morella:
History is left in History who cares...

The man who doesn't know history is doomed to live through it again.
SalomonThreads: 6
Posts: 602
Joined: Apr 7, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: Salomon  May 27, 09, 00:41    #27
ZIMMY:
The "Lion of Lehistan" kicked a lot of butt in his day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lechistan

Lechia is the historical and/or alternative name of Poland, stemming from the word Lech (which is also a common first name). It is still present in several European languages and some languages of Central Asia and the Middle East:
Lenkija in the Lithuanian language
Lengyelország in the Hungarian language
Lehastan in the Armenian language,
Lehistan in the Ottoman Turkish language
Lahestan/Lehestan in Persian.
Lehia in the Romanian language

The term Lechia derives from the tribe of Lędzianie. See name of Poland and Lechites for details.

It is also the derivation for the term Lechitic languages associated with Poland.
helloThreads: 37
Posts: 1,104
Joined: Dec 5, 06 ♂ 		Edited by: hello  Jun 11, 09, 16:45    #28
On Russian TV, there is an "intellectual show" called "What? Where? When?", it's kind of a brand game, not the one they purchased by the license. It's an original Russian show.

I was told that recently they had a question related to the famous _saying_ Poles have. It's some way related to Jan Sobieski's whiskers and the sabre. The question they had in that game was about "WHAT kind of object is justified when it's missing, but Poles say so?" Something like this.

The saying was like: "Jan Sobieski had whiskers and the big sabre".

And it was about a handkerchief. For example, when some kid has the handkerchief missing, to clean the nose, he's using the finger and says "Jan Sobieski had whiskers..." then to clean the finger, he wipes it against the pants and says "...and the big sabre".

Do you know about such saying and how would it sound in Polish?
PiorunThreads: -
Posts: 741
Joined: Nov 11, 07 ♂ 		 Jun 11, 09, 18:27    #29
hello:
"Jan Sobieski had whiskers and the big sabre"

Yes I heard of this before. My grandfather used to say that when I was a kid, it was meant as a joke and to show us kids that we should always carry a handkerchief with us. His version was slightly different “ Mój dziadek miał takiego w±sa i tak± szablę” meaning “My grandfather had mustache like so and a sabre that big”. It used to be a way to teach the kids proper etiquette, not meant to be taken literally.
helloThreads: 37
Posts: 1,104
Joined: Dec 5, 06 ♂ 		 Jun 11, 09, 19:03    #30
Thank you, thats exactly what I needed.
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