Lech Kaczynski - was he a good leader?

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Edited by: JonnyM Feb 12, 12, 16:16 #61

gumishu:

it is also to say that some people may sometimes be right when masses around them are wrong

Aside from that statement being very close to the classical definition of fascism it begs the following question - perhaps the masses that were seduced to vote for the PiSuarzy and Kaczynski as president were very, very wrong? In the case of the PiS administration, it's refreshing to see that people quickly came to their senses.

gumishu:

why can't I be sometimes right when contradicting the majority John, can you explain that to me?

Easily. You can indeed 'be sometimes right' however evidently not very often and certainly not today. In this case you are very wrong. The Kaczynski Twins' regime was a disgrace. It produced no lasting benefit, brought international ridicule on Poland (see posts by various people above), left a bitter taste in people's mouths and several years on, despite constant media whoring by the PiSuarzy shows no sign of being allowed back.

It seems I have a more positive view of Poles than you do - at least as far as believing they've made the right choice of government in the last two elections.

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	Feb 12, 12, 16:32 #62
JonnyM: he Kaczynski Twins' regime was a disgrace. It produced no lasting benefit, let's bring things to absurd, OK - how much of a lasting benefit would your personal rule leave if you were in power for 2 weeks?

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Feb 12, 12, 16:41 #63

JonnyM:

It seems I have a more positive view of Poles than you do

again see the film - you don't have to be judgemental or be disfavourable opinion stating that a lot of people use concepts that are fed to them as their own and not use their own thinking or how easy it is to make them draw some conclusions by providing some false input, how they don't rely on their own understanding and their own observation even - this does not have to be disfavourable in the slightest - these girsl were wrong - they were purposely led to wrong conclusions - this is a fact and not a judgement

if you don't know calculus you don't know it - it doesn't mean you are worse than some other people

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Feb 12, 12, 16:52 #64

quote=JonnyM]Because as you have just acknowledged, he is right.
[/quote]
Right ? In what way he is right, most people are watching TV and their views are shaped by the main TV channels.
Name the main TV channels in Poland.
TV Trwam is not a main channel and never was. It is a new and small TV which can be received on maybe 40% of Poland's territory.
As For radio M it is not political radio, its listeners are a religious bunch and it doesn't influence population at large.
Your argument is that because there are alternative information sources in media easily accessible there is some sort of balance on medias front ? There is not, most main TV channels, most newspapers and magazines are singing the same tune and that includes hymns of praise for Tusk and his cronies and lies like the one about The Independence March.
Also claiming that because those medias are in same way anti-Establishment that makes them some kind of one front or into supporters of PiS is not a democratic way of thinking it is totalitarian set of mind - them versus us!

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Feb 12, 12, 18:46 #65

delphiandomine:

There are many cases

Interesting. Please list them.

delphiandomine:

but the one I remember most vividly was his veto on public sector pension reform.

Hmm... He didn't agree with that law, so he legally did veto it. What's so strange in that ?

delphiandomine:

Another 17 bills were vetoed - not normal behaviour for a President.

Please explain why was that not normal behaviour for a President ? Thank you.

delphiandomine:

What made it even more interesting was that he had only vetoed one bill during the previous Government - and a clear sign that he was using the office maliciously.

Why was that a clear sign that he was using the office maliciously ? Please explain.

delphiandomine:

and this is without mentioning his abuse of the Constitutional Tribunal

How did he abuse the Tribunal ? Please explain.

delphiandomine:

Let's not forget the fact that he was very, very pro CAP -which is nonsense for someone who claimed to be against the EU.

When did he claim to be against EU ? Please explain. Thank you.

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	Feb 12, 12, 19:27 #66
Grzegorz_: delphiandomine: Another 17 bills were vetoed - not normal behaviour for a President. Kwaśniewski vetoed 35 bills in his two cadencies - but remember that a lot of his time as president was also the time of post-communist governments (SLD) - http://news.money.pl/artykul/prezydent;zawetowal;ustawe;medialna,99,0, 491363.html

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Edited by: Grzegorz_ Feb 12, 12, 22:39 #67

delphiandomine:

but Kaczynski's maniacal desire for control prevented that.

delphiandomine:

but PiS demanded control of all the "security" ministries

delphiandomine:

It wasn't the amount of ministries, but rather control over the security-related ministries. If you remember back what happened in the Contract Sejm, there is a very good reason not to let one party control all the ministries relating to security and power.

Please remind us how many parties (and which of them) have been controlling security-related ministries since +4 years. Thank you in advance.

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Feb 12, 12, 22:54 #68

Grzegorz_:

Please remind us how many parties (and which of them) have been controlling security-related ministries sine +4 years. Thank you in advance.

Absolutely pointless statement - PiS had 22 more seats than PO in the 2005 Sejm and needed PO for a viable coalition over the 4 years. PO in 2007 and 2011 didn't need PiS at all - so it's a completely pointless comparison.

The point is not that PiS were in control of those ministries, but rather that PO didn't want PiS to be in control of them. PiS wanted control of them - and were forced into a coalition with LPR and Samoobrona as a result. The same coalition destroyed the centrist vote for PiS - and also destroyed the viability of them in Government. Kaczynski's gamble all along was that he would discredit his coalition partners, take their votes - and with the 27% from 2005, plus the 20% from the coalition partners - they would have enough to sneak a parliamentary majority.

And it worked, sort of. They took the 20% away from Lepper and Giertych - yes. But they lost the centrist voters that won them the 2005 election - and with it, the Government.

Ah well. We have another 4 years of PO dominance - here's to it!

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Feb 13, 12, 00:45 #69

delphiandomine:

Absolutely pointless statement - PiS had 22 more seats than PO in the 2005 Sejm and needed PO for a viable coalition over the 4 years. PO in 2007 and 2011 didn't need PiS at all - so it's a completely pointless comparison.

It was not a statement or a comparision but a question. Please answer.

delphiandomine:

The point is not that PiS were in control of those ministries, but rather that PO didn't want PiS to be in control of them.

True.

delphiandomine:

PiS wanted control of them - and were forced into a coalition with LPR and Samoobrona as a result. The same coalition destroyed the centrist vote for PiS - and also destroyed the viability of them in Government.

Very true too but totally not in line with what you had previously said about the reasons why PO-PiS coalition was not fomed in 2005.

BTW Please also kindly reply to #65. Thank you.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂	Feb 14, 12, 21:54 #70
Please kindly answer. Thank you in advance.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Feb 15, 12, 20:57 #71
Grzegorz_: Please kindly answer. Thank you in advance. are you still waiting ?:D

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂	Feb 18, 12, 20:54 #72
Yes...

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Feb 18, 12, 21:02 #73
delphiandomine: They took the 20% away from Lepper and Giertych - yes. But they lost the centrist voters that won them the 2005 election - and with it, the Government. Basically they were voted out at the earliest possible opportunity. And also lost the subsequent election.

noreenbThreads: 4 Posts: 1,082 Joined: Apr 22, 09 ♀	Edited by: noreenb Feb 24, 12, 12:42 #74
History will tell us in the time close to decades. Why do you want the leader in the past? Has he already made the decision that he wants to be retired? Really people, have respect for others.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Feb 24, 12, 13:49 #75
noreenb: Has he already made the decision that he wants to be retired? Em, you do know he's no longer alive?

noreenbThreads: 4 Posts: 1,082 Joined: Apr 22, 09 ♀	Feb 25, 12, 17:19 #76
Em, do you know, that he's gor a twin, you smart bro?

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Feb 25, 12, 17:22 #77
Erm, you do know the thread isn't about his evil twin. Nor is Jaroslaw (Tinkerbell) Kaczynski even mentioned on this page. As for him retiring, I suspect the decision will be made for him.

noreenbThreads: 4 Posts: 1,082 Joined: Apr 22, 09 ♀	Feb 25, 12, 17:37 #78
"No longer alive" to be a pain till a** and show you I am extremely stuborn, JohnnyM means that from my point of view, he is in eternal space where people who believe there is an other reality (God and all saints) have now a good fun.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Feb 25, 12, 17:50 #79
noreenb: I am extremely stuborn As a mule. I wonder what JK does for fun, except stroke his cats.

noreenbThreads: 4 Posts: 1,082 Joined: Apr 22, 09 ♀	Feb 25, 12, 17:52 #80
Don't better ask me. Dead people deserve a lot od respect, JohnnyM.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Feb 25, 12, 17:59 #81
noreenb: Don't better ask me. Exactly the same, not one iota more or less than someone did when they were still living and breathibg - after all we judge someone by what they do/did rather than the fact that they are no longer doing it. Lenin for example was a foul individual - should we respect him more now that he's on a slab being gawped at by tourists?

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Edited by: Ironside Feb 25, 12, 20:29 #82
JonnyM: Lenin for example was a foul individual - should we respect him more now that he's on a slab being gawped at by tourists? No respect per for him, but respect for people who are not longer alive hence are judged by the highest tribunal.

teflcatThreads: 6 Posts: 1,074 Joined: May 29, 11 ♂	Feb 25, 12, 21:28 #83
Ironside: judged by the highest tribunal I take it you mean God. Who, no doubt, shares your views. I hope so for your sake Ironside, otherwise you are fcked.

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Feb 25, 12, 22:00 #84

JonnyM:

As for him retiring, I suspect the decision will be made for him.

It really does look like he's determined to either win or bring the party down with him. PiS need a new leader, desperately (the maniacs will follow Ziobro, who is far more capable of radicalising them) - someone who can actually oppose. It's actually incredible how little political talent PiS have - even the SLD are doing a better job right now.

Their total failure to present viable reform plans for pensions says it all - the SLD's call for a referendum was far more sensible.

teflcatThreads: 6 Posts: 1,074 Joined: May 29, 11 ♂	Feb 25, 12, 22:02 #85
JonnyM: Jaroslaw (Tinkerbell) Kaczynski I hope you are not suggesting that the (soon-to-be Great Leader) is gay. If so, please do not use such homophobic epithets. JK is a God-fearing, red-blooded man, and his love of pusssies should be ample evedence of that.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Feb 25, 12, 22:06 #86
teflcat: (soon-to-be Great Leader) He already is! Interestingly, he doesn't want to be President anymore. Just the Prime Minister, though he offered no useful ideas on how he might become one.

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Feb 25, 12, 22:25 #87

delphiandomine:

though he offered no useful ideas on how he might become one

His ultimate demise will be similar to that of the awful Margaret, i.e. surrounding himself with kiss-asses who bolster his delusions with one eye on their own political career. You and I know that JK is dead in the water. Funny how so many people across the pond seem to believe that he's in the running for anything other than a footnote in Polish history.

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Feb 26, 12, 01:17 #88

teflcat:

Funny how so many people across the pond seem to believe that he's in the running for anything other than a footnote in Polish history.

Strange, isn't it?

It's much to do with the way that he's reported - he's always described as "Solidarity, Church and Conservative" which no doubt appeals to them. I reckon most of them if they actually knew anything about him would run a mile - especially once they discovered just how socialist his views are.

Those of us living here know that he's really none of those things.

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Feb 26, 12, 03:01 #89

Ironside:

but respect for people who are not longer alive hence are judged by the highest tribunal.

No no no. If there is a 'highest tribunal', it/He judges us on what we do when we're alive. Being no longer alive in no way confers respect.

teflcat:

JK is a God-fearing, red-blooded man, and his love of pusssies should be ample evedence of that.

One day, I'll tell the whole story. It's a sad but general fact that people who are pestering you in the bushes at Błota tend look like JK rather than Ronaldo, and a young (and devastatingly handsome) foreigner might easily remember if he's told that the most bothersome pest is a former child actor whose twin brother wants to run for mayor. I wonder what he gets up to now he's much more recognisable.

delphiandomine:

I reckon most of them if they actually knew anything about him would run a mile - especially once they discovered just how socialist his views are.

Indeed.

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