Liquidation of Jewish Ghetto in modern reconstruction.

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Edited by: pawian Sep 11, 10, 23:25 #1

It was organised in the town of Będzin today. 200 people, including students from local schools, took part. Opinions were mixed - some praised the performance, pointing to its historical and educational value, others critisized, claiming that Holocaust shouldn`t be acted out because it is improper and one day someone might try to reconstruct Crematorium scenes etc.

What do you think?

I am for. Reading about Holocaust and seeing it with one`s own eyes are two different things. Young people need to witness such reconstructions to know how the past looked like.

See the film:
http://www.tvn24.pl/-1,1673173,0,1,w-bedzinie-zlikwidowali-getto-dziec i-i-mlodziez-zadowolone,wiadomosc.html

McCoyThreads: 46 Posts: 1,756 Joined: Jul 3, 08 ♂	Edited by: McCoy Sep 11, 10, 23:38 #2
pawian: Young people need to witness such reconstructions to know how the past looked like. young people need to educate and think about the future. reenacting the battles is something different but reenacting the humiliation and homicide is just wrong and stupid.

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Sep 12, 10, 00:45 #3

McCoy:

young people need to educate and think about the future. reenacting the battles is something different but reenacting the humiliation and homicide is just wrong and stupid.

There is saying in Polish: "Jeżeli zapomnimy o Nich, Boże zapomnij o nas".
If we forgot Them, please God forgot (turn your back on) us.

There was a topic on this forum asking question along this line "Why do Poles celebrate the 1st of September?" It wasn't a victory for Poland, it wasn't glorious day. It was a start of unimaginable suffering. We do it because WE WANT to remember. We want to learn.

This youngsters playing their roles will remembered the past. And that is a good thing.

♀

Sep 12, 10, 01:15 #4

McCoy:

young people need to educate and think about the future. reenacting the battles is something different but reenacting the humiliation and homicide is just wrong and stupid.

I agree to a certain degree with what you say, but wouldnt you agree, this was a poignant part of modern history where a group of people were singled out and murdered in the most heinous way...whilst we still remember we are unlikely to go back..and there was a battle..

I am going to contradict myself and say..Me, personally, I feel we should move on and look to the future, looking back is just like picking a scab, it never heals and we are constantly reminded and the end result, at the end of the day is a worse scar..

As for humiliation..Jewish people as well as Polish people have nothing to feel humiliated about, both put up a good fight in Warsaw with what limit resouces they had...Both should be proud!

♀

Edited by: Allison Sep 12, 10, 02:39 #5

This is retarded. MOVE ON!!!! I hate it when people try to over dramatasize certain things over others. I think its quite arrogant of jews to think they need focus so much on what was done to them. There are much worse things that happen to people every day around the world but still they like to focus on the past and draw attention to themselves and the holocoust. Their argument would probably be "We have to make sure nothing like this ever happens again" and my response is ITS ALREADY HAPPENING GET OVER YOURSELF. Sure it needs to be taught in history class a little bit but I'm sorry, they just take it too far and empasize it more than is necessary. Jews are only concerned with themselves, I'm sorry but its just the truth.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07 ♂	Sep 12, 10, 02:48 #6
Allison: There are much worse things that happen to people every day around the world like what? McCoy: reenacting the humiliation and homicide is just wrong and stupid. i kind of agree with this.. there already are memorials to the holocaust in place.. not sure if we need even more reminders.

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Edited by: Allison Sep 12, 10, 02:58 #7

plk123:

like what?

One example would be communist China and how the government only lets people have one child. I used to babysit for extra money and I worked for this lady who had adopted a toddler from there. She had been starved and neglected in an orphanage and had all of these problems because of it but that is only a taste of what goes on over there. I can't recall every detail about the situation there but I know that it is a horrible place and that there are some very bad things going on there. I don't necessarily think there is much people can do to prevent these things from happening, but I think it is almost disgusting the way they are acting out horrific events that happened a long time ago. If these people are concerned with humanity they should worry about current issues going on not focus on some horrible event in the past. I understand its a part of their history, but I think its absolutely ridiculous the way they focus on it so much. No other group of people does that. Its incredibly selfish and there is no point in it whatsoever.

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Edited by: Amathyst Sep 12, 10, 03:25 #8

Allison:

This is retarded. MOVE ON!!!!

Again, I agree (not about retarded of course) but, Alison, your parents live a country where bombs did not flatten cities and their homes..your grand parents did not endure hardships..Im positive your parents did not endure hardships as a result of WWII (apart from possibly the death of a family member)..You are far removed from it and your country didnt have it on their door step...In Europe we did..so the it will always be (for years to come) a part of our history, something we feel we need to honor and to remember...

I mean no dissrespect by this but, Americans have little or history of war (civil war and thats it) so they have little idea on a (at home) level how it can affect a nation, (we had WWI and then not long after WWII) Im sure in a couple of hundred years..WWII will be like the Civil War..at the moment Ali, we still have surviors of WWII so its still in the here and now.

By the way we have moved on and and Europe is peaceful...

Allison:

One example would be communist China and how the government only lets people have one child

Not quite true, those that can afford to pay the fine can afford to have more kids...Read a bit more in to it before making bold statements.

Allison:

I used to babysit for extra money and I worked for this lady who had adopted a toddler from there. She had been starved and neglected in an orphanage and had all of these problems because of it but that is only a taste of what goes on over there. I can't recall every detail about the situation there but I know that it is a horrible place and that there are some very bad things going on there. I

You think thats bad? They sell their kids...Generally to a farmer so he has someone to cook and clean form him when it grows up..

But thats just a snap shot of society..China is booming and girls from nice families..enjoy the same life as you do, schoo, mucis, parties etc...

By the way, couldnt that woman find an American child to give a good home to?

Allison:

Its incredibly selfish and there is no point in it whatsoever.

Depends on if your nans home was bombed or not (mine was)? As I have already said...it will take time and then it will be "just history" and there will be no actual direct personal link...It takes time..

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Sep 12, 10, 03:31 #9

The holocaust is over-rated...

why don't they act out the 33,000 people that die everyday of preventable diseases so we can actually be influenced to do something...

Don't get me wrong, I respect those that lost their lives, but it's over done way beyond any other genocide in history. Last time I checked in Poland they had holocaust comic books and remakes of souvenirs that were found in concentration camps....seriously? Who profits off of that? History is history, and fact is fact...but silliness is just plain silliness and a bit delusional when nationalism and fanaticism is involved behind it... and I say this for all genocides and heinous acts of history.

Instead of having "fun" re-enacting it just buy a damn history book (from a reputable press) about the holocaust and read it...

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Sep 12, 10, 04:03 #10

George8600:

The holocaust is over-rated...

Did you just really say that?

George8600:

why don't they act out the 33,000 people that die everyday of preventable diseases so we can actually be influenced to do something...

I think we are, research counts for millons each year in budgets (look it up) and our governments are also pouring money in to developed countries at rate each year which is not sustainable with the growth in these countries but we just keep on upping the budget!

George8600:

Don't get me wrong, I respect those that lost their lives

You're part Greek and so you should, be proud of the resistence movement on Crete! The Greeks were proud and maybe not as recognised as some nations, but most who know our WWII history know what a valuable part they played!!

George8600:

Last time I checked in Poland they had holocaust comic books and remakes of souvenirs that were found in concentration camps....seriously?

Possibly items in-mates took with them? Or bartered for or sold themselves for or sold another person for...does it phucking matter?????????????????????

George8600:

but silliness is just plain silliness and a bit delusional when nationalism and fanaticism is involved behind it.

Really??? Both go hand in hand yet at the same time can walk separately..Iin the UK we have the BNP and we have the English Defence, one is facistc the other is nationalistic..so thecan be separate, a few will argue they are the same..but I will say otherwise.

George8600:

Instead of having "fun" re-enacting it just buy a damn history book (from a reputable press) about the holocaust and read it...

Tell that to the 100s that like dressing up as Roundheads :

http://www.marquisofwinchesters.co.uk/Links/LinkRA.html

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Edited by: Allison Sep 12, 10, 04:48 #11

Amathyst:

By the way we have moved on and and Europe is peaceful...

Then why is there a need for them to act it out on the street? I wasn't saying Europe should move on just the people doing this. They're too obssesed with it IMO and I do understand how important it is to European history. My point is why do the people acting this out spend so much time worrying about the past when they could be concerning themselves with human rights issues that are a problem now? They don't seem to be that concerned with non-jews that suffered during that time either. There were people of color, anglos, and handicaps that were targeted too not just jews. Its not just people who went to concentration camps that suffered during the war either, don't get me wrong they certainly didn't suffer as much but they were not exactly having a jolly old time either. Like I said they are really only concerned with drawing attention to the suffering of their own people. They mostly try to focus on things that will make people react with their emotions rather than to see the big picture. They are not really accurately portraying what was going on.

Amathyst:

By the way, couldnt that woman find an American child to give a good home to?

I don't really think what she did was right, but I thought what happened to that little girl was horrible. btw I don't think you're right about people in China being able to keep more kids if they pay a fine where is your proof?

George8600:

Instead of having "fun" re-enacting it just buy a damn history book (from a reputable press) about the holocaust and read it...

My thoughts exactly

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Edited by: MareGaea Sep 12, 10, 05:06 #12

Allison:

This is retarded. MOVE ON!!!! I hate it when people try to over dramatasize certain things over others. I think its quite arrogant of jews to think they need focus so much on what was done to them. There are much worse things that happen to people every day around the world but still they like to focus on the past and draw attention to themselves and the holocoust. Their argument would probably be "We have to make sure nothing like this ever happens again" and my response is ITS ALREADY HAPPENING GET OVER YOURSELF. Sure it needs to be taught in history class a little bit but I'm sorry, they just take it too far and empasize it more than is necessary. Jews are only concerned with themselves, I'm sorry but its just the truth.

You are really stupid, aren't ya?

Allison:

My point is why do the people acting this out spend so much time worrying about the past when they could be concerning themselves with human rights issues that are a problem now?

No, the point is that you really don't have a clue.

George8600:

Instead of having "fun" re-enacting it just buy a damn history book (from a reputable press) about the holocaust and read it...

Stop nagging. If they want to do this, then let them do it.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

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Edited by: Allison Sep 12, 10, 06:31 #13

MareGaea:

Allison:
This is retarded. MOVE ON!!!! I hate it when people try to over dramatasize certain things over others. I think its quite arrogant of jews to think they need focus so much on what was done to them. There are much worse things that happen to people every day around the world but still they like to focus on the past and draw attention to themselves and the holocoust. Their argument would probably be "We have to make sure nothing like this ever happens again" and my response is ITS ALREADY HAPPENING GET OVER YOURSELF. Sure it needs to be taught in history class a little bit but I'm sorry, they just take it too far and empasize it more than is necessary. Jews are only concerned with themselves, I'm sorry but its just the truth.

You are really stupid, aren't ya?

Allison:
My point is why do the people acting this out spend so much time worrying about the past when they could be concerning themselves with human rights issues that are a problem now?

No, the point is that you really don't have a clue.

Where is your argument for my stupidity? Your statements only show your fear of the truth and incabability to understand common sense. In a previous life I know that I was Germanized as a young child and forced to live in a way that was alien to me (I drew, wrote, and said things as a child that were just uncanny and I had not ever been exposed to any media relating to that kind of thing). I was also used in the lebensborn's "horse breeding" later in my life and believe me, I do have a clue. I try not to focus too much on the past though.

Sure they can do it if they want to I'm all for that kind of freedom but it doesn't mean I'm going to think its a good idea. They may not realize it but what they're doing will only annoy people and desensitize them. That's just my opinion and it doesn't make me stupid.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Sep 12, 10, 07:32 #14
Poles playing german soldiers??? Oh weh! :(

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Edited by: George8600 Sep 12, 10, 09:27 #15

Amathyst:

Did you just really say that?

I meant in terms some media outlets and others treat the matter, not the genocide itself.

Amathyst:

I think we are, research counts for millons each year in budgets (look it up) and our governments are also pouring money in to developed countries at rate each year which is not sustainable with the growth in these countries but we just keep on upping the budget!

I have seen the statistics, and they don't look to good. While science is breaking walls, society isn't. Charity rates are dropping by the year, and the majority of that money being poured goes through the World Bank and IMF tagged with sky-high interest rates. However I do no coerce this with the holocaust. I simply think society needs to look more forward.

Amathyst:

You're part Greek and so you should, be proud of the resistence movement on Crete! The Greeks were proud and maybe not as recognised as some nations, but most who know our WWII history know what a valuable part they played!!

Idk, Greeks are known for their pride and nationalism, but I'm one of the few who doesn't really care lol. All humans eventually resist by Hobbesian law to sovereigns which bear no benefit what so ever. The Greek resistance is very similar to the Polish resistance. But speaking of Greeks, sorta like Israel and the holocaust...they never shut up about those Turkish genocides. @_@ lol, don't get me wrong but... I never mean to generalize. Here I speak of the few nationalists in both countries who make their entire perspective based on these single events in history.

Amathyst:

Possibly items in-mates took with them? Or bartered for or sold themselves for or sold another person for...does it phucking matter?????????????????????

If that were the case, that's worse. Then those possessions were stolen from innocent people and are now for profit by a business that has no right to them. Just like there's some "historical shops" in Russia selling so many "historical items" from gulag victims...most of which happen to be jewelry. @_@

Amathyst:

Really??? Both go hand in hand yet at the same time can walk separately..Iin the UK we have the BNP and we have the English Defence, one is facistc the other is nationalistic..so thecan be separate, a few will argue they are the same..but I will say otherwise.

Nationalism isn't a bad thing, it's one of the essentials that keeps cultures alive, I speak of ultra-nationalism that not only takes the notion of nationalism: that a country has the right to survive, but adds the notion that this right is protected by its superiority to other groups, minorities, and countries. Which this superiority leads to ethnic cleansing, domination of land and peoples, and to the worst, genocides.

MareGaea:

Stop nagging. If they want to do this, then let them do it.

Meh, I personally don't care...

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Sep 12, 10, 09:52 #16

Allison:

One example would be communist China and how the government only lets people have one child

you have no clue about holocaust, i see.. there really isn't anything worse then that and what transcribed in PL during the war

Allison:

No other group of people does that. Its incredibly selfish and there is no point in it whatsoever.

there are plenty of reenactors here in the states.

Amathyst:

(civil war and thats it)

not true, 1812, independence, indian wars, etc..

Amathyst:

By the way we have moved on and and Europe is peaceful...

that's just an illusion.. balkans arent' totally pacified, are they now?

Amathyst:

By the way, couldnt that woman find an American child to give a good home to?

that is so puzzling to me too.. there are plenty of distressed children here..

George8600:

The holocaust is over-rated...

not really

George8600:

Don't get me wrong, I respect those that lost their lives,

then don't just diss them right from the top

Allison:

They are not really accurately portraying what was going on.

how in the hell would YOU know that.. sheesh.. really?

Allison:

I don't think you're right about people in China being able to keep more kids if they pay a fine where is your proof?

where is your proof?

MareGaea:

MareGaea

lol

Allison:

Where is your argument for my stupidity?

you make all the points for him (or anyone else) lol

Allison:

Your statements only show your fear of the truth and incabability to understand common sense. In a previous life I know that I was Germanized as a young child and forced to live in a way that was alien to me (I drew, wrote, and said things as a child that were just uncanny and I had not ever been exposed to any media relating to that kind of thing). I was also used in the lebensborn's "horse breeding" later in my life

there it is.. lol

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,395 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Edited by: pawian Sep 12, 10, 09:56 #17
Bratwurst Boy: Poles playing german soldiers??? Oh weh! :( Come on, you have seen pictures of reconstruction scenes in your military forums, I am sure.

McCoyThreads: 46 Posts: 1,756 Joined: Jul 3, 08 ♂	Edited by: McCoy Sep 12, 10, 10:07 #18
enkidu: This youngsters playing their roles will remembered the past. And that is a good thing. of course they must know and they must remember but this kind of reenacting is more like play for them ( see girls smiling on the photo ). i think the best way is to hear the story straight from the witness. much more true emotions.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Sep 12, 10, 10:09 #19
pawian: Come on, you have seen pictures of reconstruction scenes in your military forums, I am sure. But....POLES???? I know that Americans LOVE playing german soldiers (especially Waffen SS) and Brits too but...POLES???? ;)

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Edited by: SeanBM Sep 12, 10, 10:20 #20

This first photo reminds me of a fashion shoot:

Heroin chic, African American Ghetto are soooo passé, now try Jewish Ghetto.

P.S. I have no problem with young people doing re-enactments, I would be curious if my grandparents had gone through such an experience.

McCoy:

i think the best way is to hear the story straight from the witness.

Of course, unfortunately their numbers are becoming fewer and fewer.

George8600Threads: 20 Posts: 1,114 Joined: Feb 19, 09 ♂	Sep 12, 10, 10:57 #21
SeanBM: Heroin chic, African American Ghetto are soooo passé, now try Jewish Ghetto. Sadly, clothing like in that photo was only in the dreams of people living in those ghettos in reality.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Sep 12, 10, 11:04 #22
No fatties allowed! Hmm....

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08 ♂	Sep 12, 10, 11:45 #23
Bratwurst Boy: Poles playing german soldiers??? Oh weh! :( Finally I see you understand the deeply criminal character of Wehrmacht. Germany East ten points !

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Sep 12, 10, 11:52 #24
Borrka: Finally I see you understand the deeply criminal character of Wehrmacht. Germany East ten points ! Nah..I was more concerned about the image they give in those cool uniforms! (Not everybody looks that good in them like the orginals...ya know ;)

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Sep 12, 10, 15:29 #25

plk123:

there really isn't anything worse then that and what transcribed in PL during the war

And that's the result on 'overrating the Holocaust by media', as George8600 has put it.

1. Armenian genocide. Relatively small in numbers, but inaugurating the century, and whoa, it was a small nation.. Forgotten, just like Hitler predicted. Turkey still in denial.
2. Holodomor. Millions of people starved to death in about 3 years. As compared to that, death by shooting or gassing is relatively humane. Numbers were much bigger in the Ukraine, period roughly the same.
3. Cambodia. 5 years of unbelievable enslavement of a whole nation, 20% murdered like pests.
4. Rwanda. 800 000 people, roughly half of the Tutsi, murdered in a period of 3 months. Anybody here remembers the year, at least?

As for the re-enactment itself, I don't rather like it. Should be done by professionals rather, not by amateurs, to ensure that the message received is close to the message being sent. Thus Allison has a point about desensitizing too, amongst several others.

Z pomysłu nie był też zadowolony Jarosław J. Szczepański, prezes organizacji żydowskiej (...)

- Nie można wykluczyć, że amatorom mocnych wrażeń za chwilę przyjdzie do głowy wynajmowanie obozów koncentracyjnych i uruchamianie w ramach gier plenerowych komór gazowych oraz krematoriów - dodał.

Jaroslaw J. Szczepanski, president of a Jewish organisation, wasn't pleased with the idea either (...)

'We can't ensure, that nobody'll get the idea of renting concentration camps and using gas chambers and crematoriums in outdoor events'.

♂

Edited by: pawian Sep 12, 10, 18:00 #26

nott:

Z pomysłu nie był też zadowolony Jarosław J. Szczepański, prezes organizacji żydowskiej (...)

- Nie można wykluczyć, że amatorom mocnych wrażeń za chwilę przyjdzie do głowy wynajmowanie obozów koncentracyjnych i uruchamianie w ramach gier plenerowych komór gazowych oraz krematoriów - dodał.

Jaroslaw J. Szczepanski, president of a Jewish organisation, wasn't pleased with the idea either (...)

'We can't ensure, that nobody'll get the idea of renting concentration camps and using gas chambers and crematoriums in outdoor events'.

Jews officially express light disapproval because that is what their Jewish political correctness tells them to do.
But I am sure they are glad that Holocaust is talked about and thus not forgotten in Poland. The re-enactment in Będzin was already mentioned on TV today.... Thanks to it, what do you think, how many millions of people in Poland were reminded that there was a ghetto in Będzin and that Jews who lived in it perished in death camps?

Actually, I see no better way of reminding people of Holocaust than modern re-enactments. Today`s Jews must realise one thing - modern times require modern methods. Sending morose delegations to monuments of Jewish martyrology and putting flowers and wreaths at anniversaries isn`t enough to keep the memory of the past. Such ceremonies are boring to death and usually ignored by people, especially young.

Bratwurst Boy:

Nah..I was more concerned about the image they give in those cool uniforms!
(Not everybody looks that good in them like the orginals...ya know ;)

No, the images look horrible that is why they are attacked

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Sep 12, 10, 18:57 #27

nott:

1. Armenian genocide. Relatively small in numbers, but inaugurating the century, and whoa, it was a small nation.. Forgotten, just like Hitler predicted. Turkey still in denial.
2. Holodomor. Millions of people starved to death in about 3 years. As compared to that, death by shooting or gassing is relatively humane. Numbers were much bigger in the Ukraine, period roughly the same.
3. Cambodia. 5 years of unbelievable enslavement of a whole nation, 20% murdered like pests.
4. Rwanda. 800 000 people, roughly half of the Tutsi, murdered in a period of 3 months. Anybody here remembers the year, at least?

Don't forget the Chinese holocaust led by the Japanese during ww2 which killed 7 million, or Stalin's genocide of the Ukrainians which killed roughly the same number of innocent. You rarely hear of these, and they happened during the same times periods using similar industrial extermination tactics...

Or the genocide of the Amalek. "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox, and sheep, camel and ass,"(Samuel I, 15:3~Torah)

Truth is genocides happen everywhere, regardless of which religious fanaticism, political extremism, or nationalism one chooses to take.

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Sep 12, 10, 19:13 #28

George8600:

Truth is genocides happen everywhere, regardless of which religious fanaticism, political extremism, or nationalism one chooses to take.

True.

There are also terrible crimes against humanity done in parts of the congo. Like the "blonde hair and blue eyes" thing they pick out children with really dark eyes and do all of these strange torturous rituals like pouring hot oil over them because they believe they have the devil in them because of their eye color. A lot of the parents are poor and in order to keep the child from getting killed they have to keep paying these wacky people money so that they can "get the devil out of them". Now if I'm not wrong I think that is just about as bad as most things done to jews during the holocoust.

♂

Sep 12, 10, 19:55 #29

pawian:

Jews officially express light disapproval because that is what their Jewish political correctness tells them to do.
But I am sure they are glad that Holocaust is talked about and thus not forgotten in Poland.

Guess you are closer to the truth than me. I just browsed news, with Jewish comments.

George8600:

or Stalin's genocide of the Ukrainians which killed roughly the same number of innocent.

See point 2 on my list :)

George8600:

You rarely hear of these,

To the extend that you didn't recognize immediately the term Holodomor, which is a Ukrainian equivalent of Holocaust - and you are rather interested in the topic.

Question: if the re-enactment of Holocaust is a good thing, preventing future atrocities, then maybe the UN, or somebody, should publicly re-enact Rwanda slaughter on a regular basis too? The result should be even stronger, memories are fresh.

enkiduThreads: 18 Posts: 983 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Sep 12, 10, 20:04 #30
Bratwurst Boy: Poles playing german soldiers??? Oh weh! :( And Poles playing Jews!

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