In Memory of victims, who had their lives cruelly taken at Treblinka Death Camp

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Sep 3, 10, 02:51 #1

The following thread is dedicated to the hundreds of thousands of victims, who had their lives cruelly taken at Treblinka Death Camp. Visiting Treblinka is one of the saddest events, I've ever experienced. My body felt chills while riding over a small section of the road. It is where the railway leading to the camp had originally existed. The pathway can be seen in the first photo below.

Upon arrival of Treblinka it looks like a peaceful, serene forest location. Somewhere people would picnic or go camping. The extreme terror that occurred in actuality, is very difficult for many of us to comprehend.

A sincere thanks PF, for putting up with me FIVE terrific years, muah!

enkiduThreads: 18 Posts: 983 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Sep 3, 10, 03:07 #2
"In Memory of Treblinka" Strange title. This place is cursed. And this name is cursed as well. It shall not be celebrated nor honoured. Of course, I understand your noble intentions, but the title is IMHO unfortunate.

♂

Edited by: NorthMancPolak Sep 3, 10, 03:18 #3

beckski:

The following thread is dedicated to the hundreds of thousands of victims, who had their lives cruelly taken at Treblinka Death Camp. Visiting Treblinka is one of the saddest events, I've ever experienced. My body felt chills while riding over a small section of the road. It is where the railway leading to the camp had originally existed. The pathway can be seen in the first photo below.

Upon arrival of Treblinka it looks like a peaceful, serene forest location. Somewhere people would picnic or go camping. The extreme terror that occurred in actuality, is very difficult for many of us to comprehend.

Absolutely. These places can have such an effect, and it makes no sense. I felt the same way inside Rome's Colosseum, and look what used to go on there. Yet it was one of the most peaceful places I've ever visited. Makes no sense at all!

Now let's see how many posts it takes for the usual idiots to turn this into an anti-Semitic thread... :(

MEMBER ♀

Sep 3, 10, 03:28 #4

enkidu:

It shall not be celebrated nor honoured

I am by all means not celebrating the existing of Treblinka. I'm dedicating remembrance to the numerous victims, who suffered and were viciously murdered there.

NorthMancPolak:

Now let's see how many posts it takes for the usual idiots to turn this into an anti-Semitic thread

I certainly hope not. I've attached a few more photos to those who may be interested in learning more about Treblinka.

A sincere thanks PF, for putting up with me FIVE terrific years, muah!

♂

Sep 3, 10, 09:42 #5

NorthMancPolak:

Absolutely. These places can have such an effect, and it makes no sense. I felt the same way inside Rome's Colosseum, and look what used to go on there. Yet it was one of the most peaceful places I've ever visited. Makes no sense at all!

I was at Stutthof (near Gdansk) recently and I found it a much more moving place than Auschwitz, despite it being much smaller. I think Auschwitz is a bit of a circus, with big groups being shown around at break-neck speed and, strangely enough, the exhibitions.

At places like Stutthof I found the peace more unnerving.

I was also at the KGB museum in Vilno once. that place made my blood run cold AFTER I left it and looked at the building from outside in the busy street.

♀

Edited by: Amathyst Sep 3, 10, 09:50 #6

enkidu:

"In Memory of Treblinka"

Strange title. This place is cursed. And this name is cursed as well.
It shall not be celebrated nor honoured.
Of course, I understand your noble intentions, but the title is IMHO unfortunate.

When we say "In Memory of ...." its meant to be respectful, not to celebrate or even to honor, just to remember in a dignified way.

Trevek:

I think Auschwitz is a bit of a circus

I feel quite horrid saying this but I thought it was clinical and the brick buildings and tree lined roads reminded me of a Barrats housing estate...The other site where the railway tracks lead to was very different and had more of an impact on me though.

Trevek:

I was also at the KGB museum in Vilno once

There's place in Budapest a bit like that..

♂

Edited by: Trevek Sep 3, 10, 10:53 #7

Amathyst:

just to remember in a dignified way

to commemorate. To recognise, to acknowledge

Amathyst:

I feel quite horrid saying this but I thought it was clinical and the brick buildings and tree lined roads reminded me of a Barrats housing estate

What got me was the tour was at such a speed, using soundbite terms like "factory of death". At one point I asked about a particular photo on the wall and how, if the nazis were trying to conceal evidence, such a picture was ever taken. The guide said it was taken with a hidden camera by the camp resistance.

I later found there was a whole area showing aspects of the camp resistance, the secret theatre shows, religious services etc.

This was what I needed to see, the evidence that people didn't just go like sheep, they fought, they endured. The hman spark amidst 'the factory of death'.

BTW, mega thanks to Beckski for these pictures.

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Edited by: beckski Sep 3, 10, 21:11 #8

Trevek:

BTW, mega thanks to Beckski for these pictures

You are all very welcome. We should remember the victims and senseless killings, involving the holocaust. Sadly, we can't change history. Concentration Camps are part of Poland's history, where numerous Poles were also exterminated. We should never forget the fact, death camps had existed.

Here are more photos.

A sincere thanks PF, for putting up with me FIVE terrific years, muah!

♂

Sep 3, 10, 21:20 #9

beckski:

In Memory of victims, who had their lives cruelly taken at Treblinka Death Camp

Thank you, Beckski for these beautiful pictures of that nasty place. The only time I was in Poland, I didn't have the chance to visit the site due to time issues and had to limit it to only Auschwitz. If I ever go to Poland again, I will definitively visit Treblinka.

Treblinka is the place where about 35 of my anchestors died.

Thanks again!

>^..^<

M-G (and a hug and a kiss for Beckski!)

pgtxThreads: 49 Posts: 6,327 Joined: Feb 14, 09 MEMBER ♀	Sep 3, 10, 21:22 #10
MareGaea: had to limit it to only Auschwitz. i'm from Krakow and i haven't been in Auschwitz, even if it's so close... Thanks Beckski for the pictures!

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08 ♂	Sep 3, 10, 21:31 #11
pgtx: Auschwitz I had only a few days in Poland and had to make a decision. Since I was in Krakow and also since the biggest part of my family was gassed in Auschwitz, I decided to go there. Would I have been a week in Poland, I would definitively have gone to Treblinka too. >^..^< M-G (tiens)

MEMBER ♀

Sep 4, 10, 02:05 #12

MareGaea:

Treblinka is the place where about 35 of my anchestors died

I'm very sorry to hear about the tragic endings, your numerous ancestors had experienced at Treblinka.

I've attached more photos. The first photo is somewhat graphic. It depicts a scene of charred remains of victims after cremation.

A sincere thanks PF, for putting up with me FIVE terrific years, muah!

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07 ♂	Sep 4, 10, 02:48 #13
what in the hell was wrong with the original title? it was concise and to the point? no need to fidget with everything on here.. don't mods have way more pressing issues all over the forums? sheesh.. and yes, thanks becks.. looks like this was a really great trip you had.

MEMBER ♀

Sep 4, 10, 06:42 #14

Some final photos

The crosses are symbols, representing the thousands of Polish people that were killed there. More accurate records were found concerning their deaths, as opposed to victims of other ethnicities. Information sometimes included their full name, occupation and vicinity where they had lived.

The last photo is the memorial dedicated to the many people, who suffered and perished within terrible the death camp.

A sincere thanks PF, for putting up with me FIVE terrific years, muah!

♂

Edited by: plk123 Sep 4, 10, 07:12 #15

beckski:

Visiting Treblinka is one of the saddest events, I've ever experienced. My body felt chills while riding over a small section of the road. It is where the railway leading to the camp had originally existed

NorthMancPolak:

Absolutely. These places can have such an effect, and it makes no sense. I felt the same way inside Rome's Colosseum, and look what used to go on there. Yet it was one of the most peaceful places I've ever visited. Makes no sense at all!

Trevek:

At places like Stutthof I found the peace more unnerving.

the place that always gave me the wee bee jeebies is the Palmiry Forest. spooky..

Amathyst:

The other site where the railway tracks lead to was very different and had more of an impact on me though.

this one?

btw. compare it to this photo

i agree, pretty trippy

----------------------

again, thanks for sharing beckski.. great photos and write up.

♂

Sep 4, 10, 13:48 #16

beckski:

Some final photos

You know I always wonder, when you see this imagery of death camps and other products of hate, why there on Earth are still ppl that think hate is a good thing and defend their hate towards ppl who use their common sense and say all the hate has to stop.

But like I said, somewhere earlier, Simon Wiesenthal once said: "every other generation this vile hate rears its ugly head again. Ppl forget and need sb to blame - the other is always perfect to blame as you don't want to blame yourself for your own failure."

This time it took a bit longer for this cancer to resurface, but that's only because the Holocaust was such a big blunder that for a little while, even the racists were embarrassed and neo-Nazis were still afraid of going to jail for spouting their disgusting ideas. Now, as it seems, it's kinda "safe" to state things like that, they come crawling from underneath their rocks and stones again and taint the world again with this crap. :(

I'm getting so fcuking tired of this. Every freaking time they come again and again and again. And the fun thing is, most of them racists are heroes of the Internet - if they would say it to my face they would be afraid of getting punched in the face. A very real fear though :)

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08 ♂	Edited by: Moderator Sep 4, 10, 16:31 #17
Anyway, my family never earned one cent on the Holocaust, in the end it didn't only cost my family around 75 members as part of the 6 million Jews that died, but it cost them a fortune as many of the pre-war possessions were either stolen by the Nazis or collaborating Dutchmen. >^..^< M-G (they called some of them "bewariër" a combi of the Dutch words for aryan and to keep)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Sep 4, 10, 19:35 #18
I did come across it, M-G, yes. However, I had read before that sth was up regarding the financing of the madman.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Sep 4, 10, 19:43 #19
Wrocław, what more can be said than, 'I pay my respects to those that needlessly lost their lives'? I don't think anyone here has relatives that perished there but the tales don't make for good reading.

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08 ♂	Edited by: MareGaea Sep 4, 10, 19:46 #20
Seanus: I don't think anyone here has relatives that perished there I do, Seanus. I have already explained this earlier on in the thread. >^..^< M-G (tiens)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Edited by: Seanus Sep 4, 10, 19:49 #21
Really? Aha, I forgot that you have Jewish roots. My apologies for the oversight. I know now why my parents-in-law's German relatives had such a guilt-ridden conscience. He refused to join the SS Wehrmachten and didn't want to see Poles or Jews die for nothing. Such trying times! Sorry, M-G, I've only recently jumped onto this thread and have only read a few comments.

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 ♂ [Moderator]	Sep 4, 10, 20:30 #22
Marek11111, you were asked to stay on topic. please do so. this thread is about those who died at Treblinka

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Sep 4, 10, 20:33 #23
How about you, Wrocław, do you know of any victims? I just can't see how this discussion can take off without treading on toes or upsetting people.

♂

Edited by: MareGaea Sep 4, 10, 20:36 #24

It was quite gruesome to figure out, one feels like some sort of a bookkeeper when describing the events. The biggest part (about 40 ppl) of my family was arrested during one single razzia on the 18th of April 1943. They were betrayed by their neighbour. After torture the sites where the rest of the family in Rotterdam was hiding were revealed and consequently raided on the 22nd, 25th of April and the 2nd of May, all in 1943.

After a short stay in the "Hollandse Schouwburg" (Dutch Theatre - collection site of Amsterdam Jews and Jews from other parts of Western NL), they were herded to the Amsterdam Muiderpoort trainstation on the 10th of May 1943 and packed in the trainwagons we all know. The train went first to Bergen Belsen, where they presumably arrived on the 12th of May.

There half of the wagons were cut loose from the train and the ppl in there were herded into the Bergen Belsen camp, among which app. 40 family members. These were to stay for a few months in Bergen Belsen, before being shipped to Auschwitz, where they arrived on the 12th of September 1943.

It seems they weren't killed immediately, but for certain not long after arrival as records indicate that two weeks later new shipments from France and elsewhere arrived and there was ample space to hold them - the numbers of inmates two weeks earlier imply that nearly all of the barracks must've been full to the limit. It's therefore safe to assume that they were killed somewhere between the 12th and the 27th of September of 1943. The Nazis didn't keep names and numbers of the loads that went into the gaschamber, so it's hard to determine on which day exactly they were gassed.

The remainder of the train with app. 35 family members in it went from Bergen Belsen on to Treblinka, where they arrived around the 25th of May 1943. Everybody on that train went straight from the train into the gaschamber. Yet it's impssble to name exact dates of which one was gassed on which day as, like I said, the Nazis didn't keep books on that particular part - at least, I didn't find them.

Edit: have to add that my private research was only pssble with the friendly co-operation of German, Polish and Dutch authorities in the field.

>^..^<

M-G (like I said, I felt a bit like a bookkeeper checking on his books)

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 ♂ [Moderator]	Sep 4, 10, 20:43 #25
Seanus: How about you, Wrocław, do you know of any victims? I just can't see how this discussion can take off without treading on toes or upsetting people. well, i think it should be up to beckski the OP to lead the topic. my job is to keep the thread clean until she returns. my wife's family had relatives in death camps. i have no idea if Treblinka was one of them.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Sep 4, 10, 20:51 #26
M-G, that was the biggest problem. To the Nazis, they were indiscriminate killings and not to be recorded but wiped from the face of the Earth. I went to Auschwitz and listened in on the details and methods of killing but Treblinka is known only to me by name and some sparse coverage in my History course at secondary school.

♂ [Moderator]

Sep 4, 10, 20:58 #27

MareGaea:

The Nazis didn't keep names and numbers of the loads that went into the gaschamber, so it's hard to determine on which day exactly they were gassed.

I'm sure i saw a list of names at Auschwitz. it was all fictitious of course and quite sickening.
something like this:
11:00 joe smith. heart attack
11:01 mary smith. pneumonia

there is an online list of those who died, but without dates i would imagine.

Do any records for Treblinka exist ?

♂

Sep 4, 10, 21:04 #28

I think I saw sth akin to that too, Wrocław. VERY disingenuous to throw together a haphazard list rather than anybody actually doing sth about it. When will people ever learn, life is life and not a tick in some box. I just have the awful image of a doctor coming in and asking the Nazis for details of what they had done.

M-G, my sincerest condolences for your loss(es)!!! I guess you pulled a few strings to get what you needed in terms of info. I'd've done the same.

♂

Edited by: MareGaea Sep 4, 10, 21:10 #29

Wroclaw:

Do any records for Treblinka exist ?

There are some documents, but not available to the public. One needs special permissions to have a look at them. But given the nature of the camp - there was hardly any "storage" place for large amount of prisoners, the vast majority were gassed on arrival. A very good account of what happened is the interview Claude Lanzmann had in Shoah with one of the former guards of Treblinka. I would suggest you view it on YouTube, or, if you can get your hands at it, to watch the entire documentary - which is quite a sit as I believe the total time would be over 5 hrs or sth.

For Auschwitz it's easier.

@Seanus: it helps when you're a Historian. You can contact the necessary authorities through the University and this usually is enough to convince them that it's for scientific research. Plus, the Bundesarchiv was very helpful. I can definitively recommend them. I went to Bergen Belsen and Koblenz where they were very helpful indeed. Out of Poland came photo copies of the material I needed. In total it took me about a year to figure out. But it was also the reason why I became a Historian in the first place.

>^..^<

M-G (but still it feels awkward to describe endings of lifes, not only of relatives, this way)

♂

Sep 4, 10, 21:44 #30

Fine, present evidence that David Irving has unearthed in an academic setting but don't launch straight into jokes at the expense of those that lost their lives in Treblinka and elsewhere. As I've said to yehudi, M-G, I really don't know enough Jews to comment but that is neither here not there when it comes to Treblinka, Auschwitz and Daschau.

The taking of innocent life is wholly unjust wherever you are!

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