In Memory of victims, who had their lives cruelly taken at Treblinka Death Camp

♂ [Suspended]

Dec 21, 11, 18:33 #61

Gruffi_Gummi:

If you want to research the minds of WWII-era Germans and their rationale for wholesale murder, then you MUST refer to sources like Der Stürmer!

Not really, it's far better to check out what the men themselves had to say.

PolishBread-OK:

Belzec, 45 km N/east of Lublin, was a smaller, cruder sister camp in which 300 000 died in similar circumstances.

You're thinking of Sobibor, and it's more ENE than NE from Lublin. Belzec was the first camp, where the techniques were trialed and perfected.

PolishBread-OK:

I recall the Commandant Koch was executed by the SS for theft from prisoners

He was the Commandant of Majdanek.

♂

Dec 21, 11, 18:45 #62

Harry:

Not really, it's far better to check out what the men themselves had to say.

Pardon me, but are you advocating purposefully excluding available relevant, historical materials from the research? Then this is not research aimed at discovering the truth, but rather at confirming presumptions.

I understand that Der Stürmer is a particularly vile propaganda that may offend some sensitivities, but this is the very propaganda that had created the receptive environment for the Holocaust. This is the factor responsible for the fact that most Germans preferred to look the other way. If you ignore these sources, you will be condemned, like Lyzko, to creating unsupported sociological constructs, based on what your biased mind considers correct, rather than on what really happened in the 1930s Germany.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Dec 21, 11, 18:47 #63
Gruffi_Gummi: This is the factor responsible for the fact that most Germans preferred to look the other way. It is of course far more complicated than that - especially given the well-documented hostility to the Nazis and their ideology.

Gruffi_GummiThreads: 1 Posts: 167 Joined: Jul 2, 11 ♂	Dec 21, 11, 18:55 #64
JonnyM: It is of course far more complicated than that Absolutely! Nevertheless, this does not nullify the significance of Der Stürmer, its authors, contents and readers, for the understanding of the attitudes toward Jews in Germany.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Dec 21, 11, 19:02 #65
Gruffi_Gummi: the significance of Der Stürmer, its authors, contents and readers, for the understanding of the attitudes toward Jews in Germany. Only in so far as The Sun, its authors, content and readers are necessary to the understanding of the attitudes towards homosexuality in England - an interesting footnote, at best a short chapter in the story, but not the heart of the matter.

♂ [Suspended]

Dec 21, 11, 19:06 #66

Gruffi_Gummi:

Pardon me, but are you advocating purposefully excluding available relevant, historical materials from the research? Then this is not research aimed at discovering the truth, but rather at confirming presumptions.

I said it is far better. If you can only argue with what I don't say, please give up this discussion now.

JonnyM:

Only in so far as The Sun, its authors, content and readers are necessary to the understanding of the attitudes towards homosexuality in England - an interesting footnote, at best a short chapter in the story, but not the heart of the matter.

Precisely. And of course, how many of the men involved with the Holocaust even read Der Sturmer? I'd imagine that the senior camp officials and 'policy planners' didn't and that the majority of the guards couldn't.

Lyzko

Dec 21, 11, 19:08 #67

#56 is NOT anti-Polish, but a sad, indeed regrettable, statement of historical fact!! As to my noticing Jew hatred here on PF, anyone proud of such bigotry is both deluded as well as dangerous. Probably those same people too are church-going Christians and don't even see the hypocricy therein:-)LOL

"Der Stuermer" is indeed a source, yet not in the way you mean it. It is of course a source of showing the sick mind of Herr Streicher and others, NEVER as a wellspring of historical fact!!!

You show me a Jew who drank gentile's blood in order to make matzoht, I'll gladly pay you a king's ransom,

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Dec 21, 11, 19:32 #68
Lyzko: As to my noticing Jew hatred here on PF, anyone proud of such bigotry is both deluded as well as dangerous. Fortunately for those of us who live in Poland, Jew-hating people and/or those proud of such bigotry are far more likely to be Polish-American than Polish: Poles seem to have moved on.

♂

Dec 21, 11, 19:46 #69

Lyzko:

"Der Stuermer" is indeed a source, yet not in the way you mean it. It is of course a source of showing the sick mind of Herr Streicher and others, NEVER as a wellspring of historical fact!!!

Ah, the light becomes to dawn. Now scroll up to #55, please, and note that it had been referenced precisely as "a source of showing the sick mind of Herr Streicher and others", in the context of discussing the causes of the Holocaust. NOT as "a wellspring of historical fact" regarding Jews. And this defines your rant #56 alleging my anti-semitism as unjustified, offensive, and arguably as just a manifestation of deeply rooted anti-Polish resentments. Face it: you expect anti-semitism so much, you are on such a short fuse, that you interpreted as an attack on Jews something that clearly wasn't one.

Lyzko

Dec 21, 11, 20:09 #70

Unless you've "slept through" the past thousand years or so of European history, you must have read/researched that the Catholic Church throughout the Holy Roman Empire helped to foment Jew hatred among the native population with its ridiculous notion that the Jews actually 'murdered' one of their own. Since all thinking people know it was Pontius Pilate (Roman governor of Galilea and NOT a Jew, nor a Christian either for that matter, but a Roman pagan!!!) who ordered the death of Jesus, any discussion to the contrary is a waste of our time. The fact that Judas Iskariot, who turned in Jesus at the Last Supper, happened to be a Jew, is certainly no reason to blame the Jews (ergo ALL Jews) for the death of Christ. That's like saying because the potentates of Ottoman Turkey decreed the slaughter of the Armenians, therefore EVERY Turk is a vicious aniti-Christian. Different circumstances, same wrongheaded thinking:-)

POLAND . The Unofficial Guide	Unanswered \| Archives
POLAND . The Unofficial Guide	Poland News and Events	Witamy, Guest \| PF Members \| Gold Members

Home \| Unanswered \| Archives \| Random \| Statistics	Time in Poland: 18:20 / May 26
About Us \| Contact Us \| Rules, Privacy \| Poland Advertising	© 2005-12 PolishForums.com