Miracle of the Vistula 80th anniversary?

StuThreads: 27 Posts: 1,109 Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂	May 29, 10, 10:59 #31
Borrka: under level one needs for discussion with me You stupid simpleton, it was obvious for the rest you don't know jack sh1t about history. And now you noticed you lost the discussion, you start talking crap like that. Grow up, choir boy!

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 29, 10, 11:00 #32
Borrka: Sorry but your knowledge of history is under level one needs for discussion with me. Bye. Oh come on.....everybody could see that you were spouting nothing but a biased, embittered opinion based on jealeousy and envy without any facts or evidence. Stop pouting! ;)

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May 29, 10, 11:26 #33

Bratwurst Boy:

Does it annoy you so much that people around the world know about the Berlin wall and how he fell and that they connect Germans with the end of the cold war but have rarely heard about the Solidarity or any other Pole?

LOL

Yeah people connect Germans as being the beneficiaries of the fall of the Berlin Wall since it fell in Berlin naturally.

But are you trying to say that the world media and the US media did not recognize what Walesa, Pope John Paul II and Ronald Reagan did together in bringing down the Soviet Union, which resulted in the fall of the Berlin Wall? If you are then you live in some kind of bubble.

I've always heard and read about the Solidarity movement and Pope John Paul II's contributions towards bringing down communism (not in Polish American newspapers). Gorbachev confirmed it! You think Gorby is telling lies??? LOL

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May 29, 10, 19:01 #34

What irritates sometimes with the Poles is exactly what was written in the original posting.
That they, and they alone, managed almost all decisive battles in world history.
Battle of Britain - yes of course they were fighting valiantly but NO they did not single-handely won the battle.
Monte Cassino - nobody will dispute the bravery of the Polish troops, but before they attacked, French units already distracted key German forces.
It has to be a Polish Calimero complex I think.

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Edited by: z_darius May 29, 10, 19:04 #35

sobieski:

What irritates sometimes with the Poles is exactly what was written in the original posting.
That they, and they alone, managed almost all decisive battles in world history.
Battle of Britain - yes of course they were fighting valiantly but NO they did not single-handely won the battle.

Actually, the Battle of Britain was won by Tom Cruise. But hey, don't be too harsh on Americans with complexes. American also cracked the Enigma machine and were instrumental in the organizing of the escape from the Stalag Luft III near what is now Zagan.

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May 30, 10, 00:04 #36

Bratwurst Boy:

They just opened the official memorial for the many people murdered trying to cross this wall.

Pray tell..how many brave Poles died trying to flee your communist jail?

Not many, as instead of fleeing they joined Solidarity movement and fought the system.

Bratwurst Boy:

Does it annoy you so much that people around the world know about the Berlin wall and how he fell and that they connect Germans with the end of the cold war but have rarely heard about the Solidarity or any other Pole?

Yeah, Wałęsa is only known in Poland. lol

Stu:

Of course there were already groups opposing communism (as there were and are groups opposing capitalism), but if it hadn't been for the abandonment of the Brezhnev doctrine, we would still have this wall running through the middle of Europe.

Did it ever crossed your mind that Gorbatchev abandoned Brezhnev's doctrine becasue, among other reasons, the civil unrest in Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia, and that it happened the other way around?

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Edited by: Sokrates May 30, 10, 00:38 #37

Bratwurst Boy:

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 3
Posts: 8776
Joined: Apr 2, 07
Gender: Male

BB it mind astound you but Solidarity and Wałęsa are known better then the Berlin Wall in US of A and at least on equal grounds in Europe.

The only German who's as famous as John Paul II is Hitler :-)

Edit.

Hitler is an Austrian, there's no German as famous as John Paul II.

BratwurstBoy:

Pray tell..how many brave Poles died trying to flee your communist jail?

Not as many as Germans shot by German police trying to flee to western Berlin.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	May 30, 10, 00:53 #38
Sokrates: BB it mind astound you but Solidarity and Wałęsa are known better then the Berlin Wall in US of A and at least on equal grounds in Europe. Definitely not! :) Sokrates: The only German who's as famous as John Paul II is Hitler :-) Definitely not! :) Sokrates: Not as many as Germans shot by German police trying to flee to western Berlin. Definitely not! :)

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	May 30, 10, 01:26 #39
Bratwurst Boy: Definitely not! :) Definitely yes! Bratwurst Boy: Definitely not! :) Your spam is strong Bratwurst-San but you have not yet reached enlightenment (Definitely yes!). :)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 30, 10, 01:27 #40
Sokrates: Your spam is strong Bratwurst-San but you have not yet reached enlightenment (Definitely yes!). :) ....I'm not giving up on me yet... likes "Bratwurst-San" :)

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May 30, 10, 04:02 #41

Bratwurst Boy:

Yeah, that's why they needed to build a wall...whereas Poland didn't need a wall nor a big soviet army to keep people supporting their homegrown commies

BBoy, that legendary wall is quite a bit overblown. It surrounded West Berlin from the rest of GDR. The area of W.Berlin was around 500 square kilometers. The area of GDR was 108,333 square kilometers.

Soviets knew Poland needed no concrete walls because far more difficult walls had already been erected in 1945 - CSRR and GDR. In the east there was the USSR. Jumping those walls would mean going straight into the embrace of the friendly STASI, StB or KGB. It might be an approach peculiar to those in GDR that jumping a wall would lead to freedom. Perhaps in East Berlin, but not in Poland, even if there was a wall.

There were definitely no walls around all of GDR. The commies needed no walls to keep the obedient nation under control and the degree of cooperation with STASI was shockingly high. So don't tell us how the "brave" GDRians fought for freedom. They tried once in 1950's and that was it. The never tried again. They were allowed to cross the Wall so they did. Now Germans live a myth of an alleged heroic struggle to demolish the wall. Demolish it they did. But that was no different than a demolition company that is contracted to demolish a house. Somehow those companies are not declared to be freedom fighters, and rightly so.

I know it may be hard for you to get over these facts, but they are facts. East Germans, in their cooperation with the Soviet commies were unrivaled, although Czekoslovakians came as close second.

RevokeNiceThreads: 21 Posts: 2,767 Joined: Jun 20, 09 ♂	May 30, 10, 04:05 #42
z_darius: although Czekoslovakians came as close second. Can you back this statement up?

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	May 30, 10, 04:18 #43
RevokeNice: Can you back this statement up? http://aktualne.centrum.cz/czechnews/clanek.phtml?id=612686

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 30, 10, 04:24 #44

z_darius:

East Germans, in their cooperation with the Soviet commies were unrivaled, although Czekoslovakians came as close second.

Yes, that's why the commies needed to build a wall in the first place...to stop the commie Wessis from storming in to the East..;)

And you are right of course, the famous Prague Spring uprising (which the brave Poles helped resistingly to destroy) was one big happy happening to celebrate the workers and farmers paradise! ;)

Polish history 101!

PS: Stop wondering why the rest of Europe sees history differently...:):):)

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Edited by: z_darius May 30, 10, 04:42 #45

Bratwurst Boy:

Yes, that's why the commies needed to build a wall in the first place...to stop the commie Wessis from storming in to the East..;)

BBoy, you haven't read my entire post, so I repeat: the Wall cut off 500 sq/km within a country of 108,333 sq/km, that's 0.46% of GDR. The wall was insignificant in keeping East Germans inside the paradise.

The wall was about 170 km long. GDR borders with FRD alone, were 1,381 km long.

Bratwurst Boy:

And you are right of course, the famous Prague Spring uprising (which the brave Poles helped resistingly to destroy)

Yes, and they did so alongside their East German comrades. That's German history 101 for you.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 30, 10, 04:48 #46
z_darius: The wall was insignificant in keeping East Germans inside the paradise. Erm...you are joking, right? z_darius: Yes, and they did so alongside their East German comrades. That's German history 101 for you. ??? Are you drunk?

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May 30, 10, 04:56 #47

Bratwurst Boy:

Erm...you are joking, right?

No, I;m not. It was a powerful symbol and a powerful barrier, protecting a tiny fraction of German Inner border.

Bratwurst Boy:

Are you drunk?

At approximately 11 pm on August 20, 1968,[6] Eastern Bloc armies from five Warsaw Pact countries, Soviet Union, Bulgaria,[7] Poland, Hungary, and East Germany, invaded the ČSSR. That night, 200,000 Warsaw Pact troops and 2,000 tanks entered the country.[8]

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May 30, 10, 04:56 #48

MediaWatch:

the US media did not recognize what Walesa, Pope John Paul II and Ronald Reagan did together in bringing down the Soviet Union, which resulted in the fall of the Berlin Wall?

The US media almost always talks about Reagan having brought down the Iron Curtain, no one else. And to back up that statement, they show video footage of the Berlin Wall coming down. Walesa might be known in Chicago where he endorses strange politicians for cash. Remember?

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 30, 10, 05:04 #49

z_darius:

No, I;m not. It was a powerful symbol and a powerful barrier, protecting a tiny fraction of German Inner border.

Protecting???
It split the Western part from the Eastern part as far as I know...that "tiny fraction" was from the north down to the south...what are you on here?

z_darius:

At approximately 11 pm on August 20, 1968,[6] Eastern Bloc armies from five Warsaw Pact countries, Soviet Union, Bulgaria,[7] Poland, Hungary, and East Germany, invaded the ČSSR. That night, 200,000 Warsaw Pact troops and 2,000 tanks entered the country.[8]

That wasn't the reason why I asked...
Are you really trying to prove your assertation that the Eastern Germans where all supporting communists with showing that they together with the brave, communism fighting/resisting Poles participated in the killing of the uprising of the likewise communism loving Czech weaklings???

'm afraid you are losing me here....:(

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May 30, 10, 05:22 #50

Bratwurst Boy:

Protecting???

Yes, from the rotten West, of course.

Bratwurst Boy:

Are you really trying to prove your assertation that the Eastern Germans where all supporting communists with showing that they together with the brave, communism fighting/resisting Poles participated in the killing of the uprising of the likewise communism loving Czech weaklings???

No, you brought the subject of the invasion to support your claims that East Germans fought so bravely against communism, in the context of Poland's alleged insignificance in that process. Fact are quite different. East Germans were pus.sies.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 30, 10, 05:31 #51

z_darius:

Yes, from the rotten West, of course.

Never pegged you for a closet commie! :)

z_darius:

No, you brought the subject of the invasion to support your claims that East Germans fought so bravely against communism,

Erm no, the whole bruhaha started with Borrka trying to picture Poles as the lone resisters in a sea of commie lovers and weak opportunists.

But the facts speak otherwise...

z_darius:

East Germans were pus.sies.

Again...the commie Poles didn't needed a wall to jail their people in, they stayed voluntarily. No killed Poles trying to leave their paradise either...and the polish tanks on the streets of Prague crushing the really brave Czechs tell it otherwise to.

Germans had their uprising, the Czechs, Hungarians...face it, there is only one people who deserves the name "pussies" of the Eastern Bloc!

Think about that if the world talks about the Prague Spring, The Budapest uprising and the Berlin wall when they remember the cold war and the end! heh:)

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May 30, 10, 06:58 #52

Bratwurst Boy:

Think about that if the world talks about the Prague Spring, The Budapest uprising and the Berlin wall when they remember the cold war and the end!

What people remember is on thing. What history proves quite another.

Three questions:

1. What does that text on the first domino say in German?
2. Who's that guy on he right?
3. Could you remind us again what was the name of that East German organization that so bravely abolished communism?

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May 30, 10, 06:58 #53

TheOther:

Walesa might be known in Chicago where he endorses strange politicians for cash. Remember?

Actually Wałęsa is a celebrity US-wide, self-made man and all that, he's known better than any German or Pole (for that matter Wałęsa is better known in US than John Paul II...).

As for JP II he's known more then any German primarily because he's recent and at least as far as America is concerned European eggheads or artists dont exist, most Americans have no idea about Kopernik and when you ask them about Bethoven they recall a dog from a family movie.

In Europe its every country for itself.

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May 30, 10, 10:16 #54

Bratwurst Boy:

Yeah, that's why they needed to build a wall...whereas Poland didn't need a wall nor a big soviet army to keep people supporting their homegrown commies, they did it all obediently by themselves (inclusive helping actively to destroy the uprising in Prague)!

LOL

Are you drunk?

There was a substantial Soviet presence in Poland keeping Poland down from 1945-1990. Why do you think there were Soviet/Russian troops in Poland for that time? Why was there also always a threat by the Soviet Union to send more troops to Poland?

So you think Poland and other Soviet dominated countries did the Soviet Union's bidding because there was ZERO Soviet pressure on them?

Its true that it was Polish COMMIES who carried out the decisions of the Soviet Union. That's because they were in league with the Soviet Union. Now can you guess why that was? Are you aware that Poland was under Soviet Union domination?

That's quite twisted thinking even for you to try to insinuate that average Poles supported Communism in Poland and are responsible for Soviet directives.

By your logic then I guess we should blame ordinary Germans for carrying out the horrible actions of the commie E. German Stazi police forces (and their German operatives) from 1945-1990?

The Commie East German government was one the staunchest supporters of preventing the break up of Soviet Union control of Central Europe. Maybe it was because they were so used to being obedient Commie Germans? At least by your logic.

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Jun 1, 10, 01:10 #55

sobieski:

he refused to make a pact with the Whites. They could have together destroyed the Red Army.

Indeed. Denikin's forces were close to capturing Moscow. Pilsudski was a man of principle however and refused the call for assistance. I reckon he speculated that once the 'alliance' was concluded, the Whites would probably in turn attack Pilsudski's forces who would be by that stage far from home.

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