No Nazi puppet regime in Poland?

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Oct 1, 10, 14:56 #1

Poles often pride themselves that unlike Slovaks, Norwegians, French, Hungarians, Romanians and others, they had never agreed to a pro-Nazi or Nazi-backed puppet regime during the Second World War. The key question here is: was there ever such an option? Did Hitler rule out the notion of a puppet regime of 'subhuman' Poles out of hand or only because German intelligecne had informed him willing collabroators would be hard to find in Poland.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Oct 1, 10, 15:31 #2

Polonius3:

The key question here is: was there ever such an option?

No, there wasn't.

No offer of a puppet regime, no invitation into the Waffen-SS, nothing...so no temptation for Poles at all.
The Nazis even had the Volkslisten to make sure no real Pole got near the Germans. There was even tried to "split" Poles into recognizable germanized people like Kashubs or Gorales and the rest.

It's nice to think there wouldn't had been collaborateurs in Poland but everywhere else where Hitler towed a softer line there was widespread support and collaboration, not only in western and northern Europe...also in other eastern countries like the Ukraine or the Baltics...even Russians collaborated and fighted with the Germans if allowed, why should Poland had been any different?

Good question!

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Oct 1, 10, 15:40 #3

Bratwurst Boy:

why should Poland had been any different?

Why was Poland the Antemurale of Christianity for centuries?
Why did we save Europe from the Turkish invasion in 1683 and from Red Flood in 1920?
Why was our country scourged and crucified in partitions? Why is Poland the Christ of Nations?

Poland WAS and IS different.

The magnanimity of Poland can only be truly understood and appreciated by True Poles.
No wonder, you're not able to grasp the idea, BB. You're a good man and a smart fellow,
but you are not Polish (thus, the whole idea of Poland, as we see it, evades you.)

*but who knows, if you hang around PF for a couple of years more, maybe you'll start to see the light*

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Edited by: Paulina Oct 1, 10, 15:43 #4

Bratwurst Boy:

No offer of a puppet regime, no invitation into the Waffen-SS, nothing...

But why there was no offer, no invitation?
You were trying to convince me in some other thread that Poland would be better off if it would ally itself with the Third Reich or at least make no trouble and that Hitler would treat Poles better if they would be willing to cooperate or at least not resist and fight.

Torq:

Why is Poland the Christ of Nations?

Torq, 21st century isn't for you... You should be born in the Romantic Period xD

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Oct 1, 10, 15:45 #5
Torq, what does the Christ of Nations mean? I mean, I follow the English but maybe not the intention.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Oct 1, 10, 15:45 #6
Paulina: Hitler would treat Poles better if they would be willing to cooperate or at least not resist and fight. Limited time offer only, act quickly, supplies are limited!

PaulinaThreads: 2 Posts: 561 Joined: Jan 31, 08 ♀	Oct 1, 10, 15:47 #7
convex: Limited time offer only, act quickly, supplies are limited! What do you mean?

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Oct 1, 10, 15:49 #8
There was a window where Poland could have taken advantage of the fist of "friendship". I'm with you though, it would have only bought time if nothing else.

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,657 Joined: Oct 15, 08 ♀ [Suspended]	Oct 1, 10, 15:51 #9
Paulina: Torq, 21st century isn't for you... You should be born in the Romantic Period xD That's what I like about him the most :) Seanus: what does the Christ of Nations mean? I mean, I follow the English but maybe not the intention. You have to have Polish soul to understand fully.

TeffleThreads: 28 Posts: 2,105 Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂	Oct 1, 10, 16:04 #10
Meaning it was, as a country, sacrificed, crucified etc. Probably not that everyone has a beard and likes turning their cheeks to get them slapped for example.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Oct 1, 10, 16:04 #11

Paulina:

Torq, 21st century isn't for you... You should be born in the Romantic Period xD

True. I'd say the whole world started to go down the drain when cavalry stopped playing
major role on the battlefield. After that it was long slide down the slippery slope :-/

Seanus:

Torq, what does the Christ of Nations mean?

We were scourged and crucified (just like Christ was) not for our sins (for we hadn't any)
but for the sins of other nations to redeem the humanity and Poland will arise one day
again (just like Christ will) and all Pole-haters will tremble with fear (just like all Christ-haters
will tremble with fear when Christ comes back.)

That's it in a nutshell.

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Oct 1, 10, 16:08 #12

Torq:

*but who knows, if you hang around PF for a couple of years more, maybe you'll start to see the light*

Never giving up hope, that's a true Pole! heh:)

Torq:

True. I'd say the whole world started to go down the drain when cavalry stopped playing
major role on the battlefield. After that it was long slide down the slippery slope :-/

*nods*

...and as helmets did go out of fashion!

We would make a fine pair Torqi...*sighs*

Paulina:

But why there was no offer, no invitation?

Hitler hadn't had any "after war"-plans with an still existing Poland...bluntly spoken.

PaulinaThreads: 2 Posts: 561 Joined: Jan 31, 08 ♀	Oct 1, 10, 16:13 #13
Bratwurst Boy: Hitler hadn't any "after war"-plans with an existing Poland...bluntly spoken. So why: Paulina: You were trying to convince me in some other thread that Poland would be better off if it would ally itself with the Third Reich or at least make no trouble and that Hitler would treat Poles better if they would be willing to cooperate or at least not resist and fight. ?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Oct 1, 10, 16:15 #14
Why what? Before the war Hitler tried to get Poland on his side, but in September '39 Poland got the bill for rather counting on the allies. Now all gloves were off..

PaulinaThreads: 2 Posts: 561 Joined: Jan 31, 08 ♀	Oct 1, 10, 16:17 #15
Bratwurst Boy: Why what? Why were you writing the opposite in a different thread to what you write now in this thread?

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Oct 1, 10, 16:20 #16

Paulina:

Why were you writing the opposite in a different thread to what you write now in this thread?

What is opposite about it?

Poland was courted by Hitler for years...they decided to be an obstacle for both juggernauts instead and they paid for that.

Poland too would had been allowed a puppet regime had they bowed down to german wishes and allowed the german armies to gather at the eastern front voluntarily (or even taking part in Barbarossa).

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Edited by: Paulina Oct 1, 10, 16:31 #17

Bratwurst Boy:

What is opposite about it?

You were writing that Hitler was making all these offers to Poland and that Slavs could join the ranks of the Nazis, even SS, and others weren't rebelling and you wrote that had Poles been more agreeable they would be better off, like those countries which allied with Hitler or which didn't fight.

Bratwurst Boy:

Poland was courted by Hitler for years...they decided to be an obstacle for both juggernauts instead and they paid for that.

Bratwurst Boy:

Poland too would had been allowed a puppet regime had they bowed down to german wishes

But they didn't bow down.

Bratwurst Boy:

so no temptation for Poles at all.

So I guess there was temptation after all, just earlier?

Still, I don't understand why there were Russian SS troops and no Polish SS troops? Was there a puppet Nazi regime in the Soviet Union?

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Oct 1, 10, 16:40 #18

Paulina:

You were writing that Hitler was making all these offers to Poland and that Slavs could join the ranks of the Nazis, even SS, and others weren't rebelling and you wrote that had Poles been more agreeable they would be better off, like those countries which allied with Hitler or which didn't fight.

Yes, these offers had been made earlier...the territories lost by the treaty of Versailles and later had been always on the table...but Hitler would had even exchanged the claim for Danzig for Polands aquiescence regardless what the common German would think about it, a clear sign how serious it was for him.

But once the war started it was all over and it was decided to do away with Poland once and for all and to incorporate all of it into Germany, not only the once german territories and towns.
(Vengeance?)

Paulina:

Still, I don't understand why there were Russian SS troops and no Polish SS troops? Was there a puppet Nazi regime in the Soviet Union?

Of course not. For that the Stalin regime would had to be toppled first...

But the german troops utilized millions of deserters and even full russian units like the cossacks and the Russian Liberation Army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiwi_(volunteer)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Liberation_Army

I mean if THAT one was good enough for Hitler's troops (Sub-human ideology or not) the Poles would had been even more so...;)

zetigrekThreads: 59 Posts: 2,709 Joined: May 20, 10 ♂	Edited by: zetigrek Oct 1, 10, 18:27 #19
Seanus: Torq, what does the Christ of Nations mean? I mean, I follow the English but maybe not the intention. Oh dear, we learn it on Polish literature lessons... It means a complex in metaphorical sense... let's say ;)

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,834 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	Edited by: Polonius3 Oct 1, 10, 18:31 #20
The 'Chrystus narodów' concept was part of the messianism inherent in Poland's 19th-century romantic ideology. Re the original question, I did hear once upon a time that a couple of Polish noblemen had made advances to the Nazis, but do not recall the details. Anyone know anything about this?

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Edited by: Paulina Oct 1, 10, 18:37 #21

Bratwurst Boy:

But the german troops utilized millions of deserters and even full russian units like the cossacks and the Russian Liberation Army.

Bratwurst Boy:

I mean if THAT one was good enough for Hitler's troops (Sub-human ideology or not) the Poles would had been even more so...;)

So, there was no puppet Nazi regime in Poland and no puppet Nazi regime in The Soviet Union, but still there was this Russian SS RONA division, but no SS division consisting of Poles. Why is that?

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Oct 1, 10, 18:39 #22

Polonius3:

Re the original question, I did hear once upon a time that a couple of Polish noblemen had made advances to the Nazis, but do not recall the details. Anyone know anything about this?

Hmm...I never read anything about that (that doesn't mean it didn't happen).
But as they did go against the polish government I can't see what they would had been able to achieve in the end.

Paulina:

So, there was no puppet Nazi regime in Poland and no puppet Nazi regime in The Soviet Union, but still there was this Russian SS RONA division, but no SS division consisting of Poles. Why is that?

Oh there had been lot's of polish nationals in the german forces, also the Waffen-SS (ever heard of the Volksliste?)
All Poles eligible for Volkslist I got into the german forces. Only those of III and without were only "good" enough for slave labour, if they weren't set for annihilation like the polish Jews.

Himmler had the Poles categorized quite nicely :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksliste#Implementation_in_Poland

....

Polish response to the institution of the Deutsche Volksliste was mixed. Being accepted into Class III could mean keeping one's property, but it might also mean being sent to the Reich as a labourer or being conscripted into the Wehrmacht.

...
Results

According to Robert Koehl, "By the introduction of the registration procedure known as the German National List (DVL) some 900,000 more 'Germans' were discovered, most of them semi-Polish minorities such as the Kassubians, the Masurians, and the local Upper Silesians whom the Germans called 'Wasserpolen'. A few thousand 're-Germanizeables' ...had also been shipped back to the Reich."[9]

The total number of registrants for the DVL are estimated to be approximately 2.7 million, with 1 million in classes I and II and the remaining 1.7 million in classes III and IV. In the General Government there were 120,000 Volksdeutsche.[citation needed]

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Oct 1, 10, 18:51 #23

Bratwurst Boy:

Oh there had been lot's of polish nationals in the german forces, also the Waffen-SS (ever heard of the Volksliste?)
All Poles eligible for Volkslist I got into the german forces.

But those were Polish citizens considered by the Nazis as "Germans", they didn't see them as "Poles", and they were quite often forced to sign the Volksliste. Others considered themselves Germans and signed it eagerly, others to save their lives, I suspect.
There was no such Polish unit like 29th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Italian) or 29th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS RONA (1st Russian), was it?

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Oct 1, 10, 18:56 #24

Paulina:

But those were Polish citizens considered by the Nazis as "Germans", they didn't see them as "Poles", and they were quite often forced to sign the Volksliste

First, nobody was forced to subscribe to the Volksliste. As it made no sense for the German Army to get unwilling, German-hating Slavs on the dangerous weapons.
To the contrary every possible applicant had to bring some proof of traces of his german ancestry.
That "being forced" thingy was a convenient afterwar myth of polish germans wanting to survive the revenge of the victors.
Starting with the Volksliste and ending with the defeat...it was better to say "they had been forced and had been fully patriotic Poles" than to tell the truth!

Second...no, there hadn't been a polish Waffen-SS unit!
All international units fighted together officially to save and rescue their countries from Bolshevism and Communism or in the Baltic and Ukrainian case for the independence of their countries (officially).
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=307

For Poles nothing of that kind was planned...Poland would had been fully incorporated into the Reich, so those Poles eligible got incorporated into the german forces instead of building a polish unit!

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Edited by: Paulina Oct 1, 10, 19:08 #25

Bratwurst Boy:

First, nobody was forced to subscribe to the Volksliste. As it made no sense for the German Army to get unwilling, German-hating Slavs on the dangerous weapons.
To the contrary every possible applicant had to bring some proof of traces of his german ancestry.
That "being forced" thingy was a convenient afterwar myth of polish germans wanting to survive the revenge of the victors.
Starting with the Volksliste and ending with the defeat...it was better to say "they had been forced and had been fully patriotic Poles" than to tell the truth!

So they were Germans, not Poles?

Bratwurst Boy:

Second...no, there had been polish Waffen-SS unit!

Had been or hadn't been? ;)

Bratwurst Boy:

Poland would had been fully incorporated into the Reich, so those Poles eligible got incorporated into the german forces!

But those were only Poles who were either ethnic Germans or Poles who had German ancestry.

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Oct 1, 10, 19:16 #26

Paulina:

So they were Germans, not Poles?

Tja...the 1 million Dollar question of central Europe of the last century!

Paulina:

Had been or hadn't been? ;)

Manno...that was a typo! :)

Paulina:

But those were only Poles who were either ethnic Germans or Poles who had German ancestry.

Or declared as such by Himmler.
I told you before ideology and "Mein Kampf" or not...Hitler and Himmler decided about the "enemy of the day" quite freely as they needed it.
Nothing was cast in stone just because Hitler wrote something in a book earlier.
Himmler tried even to put the Gorale people as Mountain-Germans...even as they saw it quite differently.

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Oct 1, 10, 21:39 #27

Bratwurst Boy:

All international units fighted together officially to save and rescue their countries from Bolshevism and Communism or in the Baltic and Ukrainian case for the independence of their countries (officially).
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=307

For Poles nothing of that kind was planned

I'd say initially and with intention of. Later they didn;t have much choice.

Interestingly, there is was some cooperation of part of the Polish underground and Germans, by the end of the war, when NSZ decided that the Soviets are an enemy, not an ally. More of an armistice, than actual brotherhood in arms, but anyway. As far as I remember.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Oct 1, 10, 21:58 #28
nott: I'd say initially and with intention of. Later they didn;t have much choice. I agree!

trener zolwiaThreads: 5 Posts: 2,786 Joined: Jun 8, 10 ♂	Oct 1, 10, 22:07 #29
OMG. Don't you guys ever tire of talking about this stuff? :s Q: Is Europe still obsessed with WWII? A: Ya know, we were just talking about this the other day... Lol.

nottThreads: 6 Posts: 1,271 Joined: Jun 2, 10 ♂	Oct 1, 10, 22:09 #30
trener zolwia: OMG. Don't you guys ever tire of talking about this stuff? :s That's why I liked the dancing, you know which...

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