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No Poles in Auschwitz according to Haaretz.


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1jolaThreads: 33
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 Jun 16, 10, 08:40    #1
How can some publications get things so wrong?

A case in point: An article in Haaretz tittled Survivors of first Nazi shipment to Auschwitz retrace route to honor victims states:

70 years after German troops cramped them into cattle cars, survivors of the first shipment of Jews to the Nazi death camp in Auschwitz, Poland, retraced the route of the train route to honor the 1.1 million people who were murdered there, the French news agency AFP reported.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/survivors-of-first-nazi-shipment-t o-auschwitz-retrace-route-to-honor-victims-1.296287

Let's see what AFP reported though:

AUSCHWITZ-BIRKENAU, Poland (AFP) – Survivors of the first-ever convoy to Auschwitz paid tribute Monday to the death camp's victims, exactly 70 years after being packed into cattle cars and sent there by German troops.

A train organised by a Polish survivors' organisation arrived at the site of the camp on the outskirts of Oswiecim, southern Poland, after retracing the route of original rail convoy from the town of Tarnow, 140 kilometres (87 miles) to the east.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100614/wl_afp/polandhistorywwiiholocaust jewsauschwitz

The camp was set up for Polish political prisoners in 1940 long before any transports of Jews arrived. Read both articles and compare them. Haaretz doeasn't even mention Poles as prisoners but AFP certainly does:

Haaretz:
Between 1942 and 1945, well over a million Jews, Gypsies, and Soviet POWs were murdered in the hell founded on the orders of SS Reichsfhurer Heinrich Himmler in 1940.

AFP:
One million were Jews from Poland and across Nazi-occupied Europe. The camp is an enduring symbol of the Holocaust.

The other victims included some 75,000 non-Jewish Poles, 21,000 Roma, 15,000 Soviet prisoners of war and up to 15,000 others including resistance members from different occupied nations.

Is this sloppy reporting or is there an agenda?

plk123Threads: 30
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 Jun 16, 10, 08:51    #2
1jola:
haaretz

Ninety percent of the prisoners at Auschwitz were killed in the gas chambers of Birkenau; 90% of those killed were Jews.

they just didn't really say whom the others, besides jews, were..
1jolaThreads: 33
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 Jun 16, 10, 08:56    #3
They did: Jews, Gypsies, and Soviet POWs. They missed the 75,000 Poles.
TorqThreads: 65
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Edited by: Torq  Jun 16, 10, 08:58    #4
"Haarec" is an Israeli "Gazeta Wyborcza". They are very often quoted in different
European leftist rags like "Libération", "El-Pais", "Independent" or "Guardian".

"Jedijot Achronot" and "Maariw" are much more reliable to give accurate information.
It is funny how "Haarec" with about 40 thousand print run on weekdays (and about 80
thousand on weekends) is quoted constantly in the European press and "Jedijot Achronot"
(400 thousand weekdays/600-700 thousand on weekends) or "Maariw" (80 thousand/
160 thousand) are almost completely ignored.

Forget "Haarec", 1jola. As I said - it's an Isreali Wyborcza (though with smaller print run).
I wouldn't even wipe my a**e with it.
1jolaThreads: 33
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 Jun 16, 10, 09:13    #5
JPost and Haaretz are widely read and quoted. It is not a tabloid.


More nonsense, this time from The Jewish Chronicle:
On June 14 1940 the first train left for Auschwitz carrying 728 Jews and other victims of Nazi persecution to the gas chambers.

http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/33017/survivors-retrace-first-aus chwitz-journey

Let me stir your imagination. Tell me what does this have to do with Polish survivors comemorating the first transport to Auschwitz? In the same article:

The memorial journey follows more than 40 countries giving their backing to global guidelines on returning property looted by the Nazis.

Stuart Eizenstat, a special adviser to the US Secretary of State on Holocaust issues, called the decision by 43 nations, made at a conference in Prague, to back the new rules, a “major advance in providing belated justice to victims and their families.”

The plans, the result of a year of negotiation, are intended to make processing claims for property stolen between 1933 and 1945 faster and more transparent, and improve access to information for those investigating.

Mr Eizenstat said it was now up to the countries as to whether the guidelines were effectively implemented.

Adding that there are 500,000 Holocaust survivors and around half live at or below the poverty level, he said: “We all have done not enough."



TorqThreads: 65
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Edited by: Torq  Jun 16, 10, 09:16    #6
1jola:
JPost and Haaretz are widely read and quoted. It is not a tabloid.


Neither is "Gazeta Wyborcza", but would you call it a reliable newspaper?
1jolaThreads: 33
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 Jun 16, 10, 09:23    #7
No, I read Rzeczpospolita and Gazeta Polska, but Wyborcza, the new verion of Trybuna Ludu, is not the issue here.
plk123Threads: 30
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 Jun 16, 10, 09:25    #8
so jola, what's your point? the jewish newspapers always have an agenda.. and that is to push jewish issues.. what are you going to do about it?
TorqThreads: 65
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Edited by: Torq  Jun 16, 10, 09:38    #9
1jola:
Wyborcza, the new verion of Trybuna Ludu, is not the issue here.


Well, Haarec IS an Israeli Wyborcza. Just to let you know - the same
quality of journalism.
1jolaThreads: 33
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 Jun 16, 10, 09:42    #10
Straighten out obvious lies when I encouter them and ecourage others, especially Jews, to do the same. Some call me an anti-Semite for that, others a Jew when I straighten out lies deniers spread. It doesn't bother me one bit, I mean the name calling.
plk123Threads: 30
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 Jun 16, 10, 09:45    #11
lies? just omissions and that is what they always do..
1jolaThreads: 33
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 Jun 16, 10, 09:50    #12
One could also call Holocaust denial an omission, but you can go to prison for that omission.
plk123Threads: 30
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 Jun 16, 10, 09:52    #13
denial is different then omission..
yehudiThreads: 1
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 Jun 16, 10, 10:26    #14
I just looked at the Hebrew Ynet site and it reports the event based on the AFP account. Here is my translation from the Hebrew of the blurb under the headline:

"Political prisoners who had been taken on the first transport to the Auscwitz extermination camp on June 14 1940 participated in a special journey from the city of Tarnow to the town of Oswiecim and from there to the extermination camp. 728 people were in the first transport, about 300 survived, but few are still alive today."

(The article doesn't say specifically that the participants were non-Jewish, but it's clear in this context since there's no mention of any Jewish organization and the stories quotes clearly refer to non-Jewish Poles. For example this paragraph in the continuation of the article:

"Among the surviving prisoners is Polish citizen Kazimierz Albin. He was then a boy of 17 who took part in an organization of Polish soldiers in France and was arrested in early 1940 while trying to get into Slovakia. Albin tells how he discovered while on the train to Auschwitz that the Nazis already conquered Paris."

So I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from the Ha'aretz article about how Israelis get the news. Ynet, belonging to Yediot Acharonot, has a much wider readership.
Torq:
"Haarec" is an Israeli "Gazeta Wyborcza". They are very often quoted in different European leftist rags like "Libération", "El-Pais", "Independent" or "Guardian".

I'm not familiar with the Polish press, but i can tell you that Ha'aretz is considered a leftist/intellectual paper, very critical of israeli policy and is not considered patriotic at all. So it would be unusual of them to distort the news with a pro-Jewish slant, since they usually try hard to do the opposite. Yediot is more of a cheap tabloid but it's what most Israelis read. In this case they seem to be accurate.
One odd thing: In the English language Ynet site the article is in the "Jewish World" section, while in the hebrew language Ynet site, it's in the "World News" section.
SokratesThreads: 19
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 Jun 16, 10, 10:34    #15
yehudi:
The article doesn't say specifically

It should say specifically, your people demand specific honest information Yehudi so its not OK when Jews give out vague context open statements about other nations in the same situation.

If you're recounting victims it has to be done by nationality not Jews and others.

Hopefully you understand why people have a right to be p*ssed at Haaretz, i'm pretty sure its not a blunder either since Jews worldwide diminish the losses of others for years with stuff like that.
TorqThreads: 65
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 Jun 16, 10, 10:35    #16
yehudi:
Ha'aretz

yehudi:
Yediot Acharonot


Ha! Now I can at least get the spelling right, next time I want to pretend
to be an expert on Israeli press ;)

yehudi:
a leftist/intellectual paper, very critical of israeli policy and is not considered patriotic at all


A perfect definition of Wyborcza (if you replace Israeli with Polish and put "intellectual"
in inverted commas) :)
yehudiThreads: 1
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 Jun 16, 10, 10:54    #17
Sokrates:
Hopefully you understand why people have a right to be p*ssed at Haaretz

I am pissed at Ha'aretz almost every day. It's a terrible newspaper that sees itself as the newspaper of record, while it's actually ignored by most Israelis. I think it has a bigger readership in Poland than it does here.
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Jun 16, 10, 11:01    #18
Where do you feel they go wrong, yehudi?
1jolaThreads: 33
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 Jun 16, 10, 11:02    #19
OK, I've read the YNet article and it is accurate in reporting this event and basic facts about the camp.

The Haaretz article is manipulative. We have the right to point that out and a few talkbacks were left there to do so.

BTW, the men from this first transport who are alive meet regularly in Tarnów if that might be of interest to anyone.

The first 10 numbers were assinged to German criminals who became the first kapos. You can read about the early stages of the camp in http://witoldsreport.blogspot.com/2008/05/volunteer-for-auschwitz-repo rt-by.html
vetalaThreads: -
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 Jun 16, 10, 11:02    #20
Wait, wait wait... Every article claims something different! It looks to me like a bad case of mistranslation and even worse case of newspapers coping the news from other sources and doing it badly.
yehudiThreads: 1
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 Jun 16, 10, 11:10    #21
vetala:
newspapers coping the news from other sources and doing it badly.

Which is one of the things that pisses me off about Ha'aretz. They claim high standards, but their reporting is sloppy and often slanted.
Seanus:
Where do you feel they go wrong, yehudi?

They are generally anti-religious, unfairly critical of Likud governments and supportive of Labor governments, and very cynical about Zionism.
You might like them.
HarryThreads: 59
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 Jun 16, 10, 12:06    #22
1jola:
No Poles in Auschwitz according to Haaretz.

Could you perhaps be so kind as to point out the part where Haaretz say there were "No Poles in Auschwitz?

1jola:
They did: Jews, Gypsies, and Soviet POWs.

So they missed the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Freemasons, the homosexuals, the communists, the socialists, the anarchists and the Christians. And you miss them too. Does this mean that I would be justified in concluding "no Jehovah's Witnesses, Freemasons, homosexuals, communists, socialists, anarchists or Christians according to 1jola"?

1jola:
They missed the 75,000 Poles.

That number is far far too low. Hundreds of thousands of Poles died at Auschwitz. Oh, now I see what you're saying, you're saying that only 75,000 Poles died there because to you a Jew can not be a Pole. How particularly pleasant of you.
StuThreads: 27
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Edited by: Stu  Jun 16, 10, 12:09    #23
Harry:
no Jehovah's Witnesses, Freemasons, homosexuals, communists, socialists, anarchists or Christians


You forget to mentally and physically handicapped, by the way ... ;). And probably some more "groups" as well, like political opponents.
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Jun 16, 10, 12:17    #24
You might like them, LOL :)

Yehudi, I can see the deleterious effects of religion exacerbated by the media. I think it's a personal thing and to be taught in schools to a limited extent, not to be the subject of newspapers.

Don't you think that toning it down in an inflamed area is the right way to proceed?
HarryThreads: 59
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 Jun 16, 10, 12:19    #25
Stu:
You forget to mentally and physically handicapped, by the way
I didn't forget them at all (it was the Nazi attitude towards them that started the whole holocaust), I just wasn't aware that Auschwitz was used to kill them. Do you have any details or sources? I'd be interested to find out about that.
MareGaeaThreads: 45
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 Jun 16, 10, 12:28    #26
This is just hair-splitting. Really, nothing more than that. You want to straighten out obvious lies? What lies? Where indeed does it say that there were no Poles? Dear, if you want to have everything corrected where the original writer forgot to mention the Poles specifically, you'll be busy.

1jola:
One could also call Holocaust denial an omission, but you can go to prison for that omission.


Holocaust denial is not an omission, it's the willful maintenance of a delusional idea, created by some depraved anti semites quite some time ago and is a harmful to society. Therefore you go to prison when you publicly deny the Holocaust. And rightfully so.

>^..^<

M-G (haec hactenus)
1jolaThreads: 33
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 Jun 16, 10, 12:52    #27
MareGaea:
Therefore you go to prison when you publicly deny the Holocaust. And rightfully so.

Perhaps there would be no Holocaust denial if your favorite historian, Sir Martin Gilbert, wouldn't make false statements like these:

In his 1981 book, Auschwitz and the Allies (New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, p. 26), he wrote:

The deliberate attempt to destroy systematically all of Europe's Jews was unsuspected in the spring and early summer of 1942: the very period during which it was at its most intense, and during which hundreds of thousands of Jews were being gassed every day at Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka.



MareGaeaThreads: 45
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 Jun 16, 10, 12:59    #28
1jola:
Perhaps there would be no Holocaust denial if your favorite historian, Sir Martin Gilbert, wouldn't make false statements like these:


Holocaust denial is actually invented/originated at the end of the war. Nazis who saw Germany's defeat coming, started to destroy all the evidence of what had happened. This evolved later on into the denial.

The quote you post is actually not a false statement. The Allies became aware of what was going on no earlier than the end of 1942 and they dismissed it at first. Gilbert is btw not my favourite historian. That would be Braudel and Taylor.

>^..^<

M-G (haec hactenus)
IronsideThreads: 56
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 Jun 16, 10, 13:03    #29
MareGaea:
Taylor.

which Taylor?
1jolaThreads: 33
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 Jun 16, 10, 13:06    #30
hundreds of thousands of Jews were being gassed every day

These kind of statements play into the hands of deniers.

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