Norman Davies - the Brit who loves Poland and becomes one of Us

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Jul 19, 11, 01:49 #241
Bzibzioh: And they decided to change their living arrangement habits from Monday to Tuesday for no reason. Sure, Harry, sure. Could you perhaps link to the post in which I said anything like that? The fact remains, despite all your insults, that Jews were not allowed to live in the city of Warsaw for the majority of the time that the city was the capital of pre-1918 independent Poland.

♀

Jul 19, 11, 02:07 #242

Harry:

Jews were not allowed to live in the city of Warsaw for the majority of the time that the city was the capital

That's really strange. What year are you talking about? The novel Lalka by Prus shows Warsaw and the Jewish situation in Warsaw in the beginning of 20th century or the end of the 19th, I'm not sure, and it shows that the poor Jews were concentrated in Praga, but rich and influential ones were mingling.

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,657 Joined: Oct 15, 08 ♀ [Suspended]	Jul 19, 11, 02:09 #243
Harry: Jews were not allowed to live in the city of Warsaw for the majority of the time that the city was the capital of pre-1918 independent Poland. Why you are lying, Harry? Jews were allowed to live in the city of Warsaw all the time that city was the capital of Poland. gotha :)

nottThreads: 6 Posts: 1,271 Joined: Jun 2, 10 ♂	Jul 19, 11, 02:10 #244
Bzibzioh: Warsaw was pronounced the capital of Poland for the first time in 1945. Ergo: you are LYING. :) But still the fact remains that Jews were. ERGO.... :)

♂ [Suspended]

Edited by: Harry Jul 19, 11, 02:22 #245

Bzibzioh:

Warsaw was pronounced the capital of Poland for the first time in 1945.

Who to believe? A Canadian who helps keep Crown Royal in business or the official website of the Capital City of Warsaw? Well, that website says (here):

In 1596 King Zygmunt III Waza decided to move the capital of Poland from Cracow to Warsaw.

and here:

ing Władysław IV Waza initiated the building of the monument – King Zygmunt III Waza’s Column at the very center of the Castle Square to honor the king who moved the capital of Poland to Warsaw.

Who could be right?!

nott:

But still the fact remains that Jews were.

Oh dear old man, either the Capital City of Warsaw is lying or you and a remarkably well preserved Canadian are. I do wonder which it could be.

Marynka11:

That's really strange.

Not really: if you fail to cut my statement in two, it is clear that I'm telling the truth.

♀ [Suspended]

Edited by: Bzibzioh Jul 19, 11, 02:37 #246

Harry:

Who to believe? A Canadian who helps keep Crown Royal in business or the official website of the Capital City of Warsaw?

First sign of losing the ground under your feet: going to personal insults :)))

You see, Harry, you only think you know things because you read about them on wiki, but you have no idea how to interpret them correctly.

Harry:

In 1596 King Zygmunt III Waza decided to move the capital of Poland from Cracow to Warsaw.

He didn't move the capital. After the Wawel Castle fire and one wing burned down, he decided to move his home, temporarily at first, to Warsaw. But all the legislature and government stayed in Kraków. With time Warsaw become unofficial capital of Poland. Officially it was declared for the first time in 1945.

Harry:

if you fail to cut my statement in two, it is clear that I'm telling the truth.

Nope. You are still lying.

Marynka11Threads: 8 Posts: 1,447 Joined: Nov 3, 10 ♀	Jul 19, 11, 02:59 #247
Harry: Not really: if you fail to cut my statement in two, it is clear that I'm telling the truth. Oh the usual, little petty attacks and no logic.

Marynka11Threads: 8 Posts: 1,447 Joined: Nov 3, 10 ♀	Jul 19, 11, 03:28 #248
Harry: Jews were not allowed to live in the city of Warsaw for the majority of the time that the city was the capital of pre-1918 independent Poland. Jews were allowed to live legally in Warsaw since 1768. The third partition was in 1795 and if you look that way, yes you are right, they were not allowed to live in Warsaw for a long time in independent Poland. Is that what you are trying to say?

♀ [Suspended]

Jul 19, 11, 03:47 #249

Harry:

Gosh, who should we believe?!

oh, that's simple: You are always going to believe what is more convenient for you :)

Harry:

the Capital City of Warsaw's official website.

And, of course this site would never have an interest to promote their city :)

But seriously: if it's in English, they would say something like that for simplicity reason.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolica_Polski
"Pierwszą konstytucją, w której wymieniono stolicę Polski, była Konstytucja Polskiej Rzeczypospolitej Ludowej z 22 lipca 1952 roku."
The first constitution mentioning the capital of Poland was the 1952 constitution.

You see: I was lying. It was not 1945 but 1952.

"Zygmunt III Waza rozpoczął w 1596 r. proces wyjazdu dworu królewskiego do Warszawy, jako że była ona bliższa interesującym go sprawom szwedzkim, a również dlatego, iż w 1595 r. miał miejsce pożar na Wawelu zaprószony podczas eksperymentu alchemicznego w obecności króla[5]. Proces przenoszenia dworu trwał do 25 maja 1609. Kraków pozostał jednakże oficjalną stolicą Rzeczypospolitej, a fakt ów był bezsporny dla współczesnych tamtym czasom; tam też koronowali się kolejni władcy (z wyjątkiem Stanisława Leszczyńskiego i Stanisława Augusta Poniatowskiego). Warszawa była oficjalnie nazywana "Miasto Rezydencjonalne Jego Królewskiej Mości."

Do you need a translation?

Don't worry, Harry: I'm not counting on you to admit a mistake anyway.

♂

Jul 19, 11, 04:21 #250

Bzibzioh:

Kraków pozostał jednakże oficjalną stolicą Rzeczypospolitej

The capital is the city where the parliament is located:

...a capital is almost always a city which physically encompasses the offices and meeting places of the seat of government and is usually fixed by law or by the constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_city
So, where was Sejm located?
The Constitution of the 3rd May was adopted in Warsaw in 1791. The parliament was there before too. That the king liked to spend more time elsewhere is not an indicator of a capital, moreover with liberum veto handy - everyone was a semi-king anyway.

Bzibzioh:

The first constitution mentioning the capital of Poland was the 1952 constitution.

English became recently an official language of the US, if I recall correctly. So, what language was spoken before in the USA? French? The constitution only finalized was wasn't that necessary or thought of before. The older constitutions concentrated predominantly on the rights of the citizens than on the administrative issues.

Bzibzioh:

Warszawa była oficjalnie nazywana "Miasto Rezydencjonalne Jego Królewskiej Mości."

Exactly, this is what it was - but not a capital.

Monia

Jul 19, 11, 10:20 #251

Nathan:

The Constitution of the 3rd May was adopted in Warsaw in 1791.

Thats right , but it was still unofficial capital , that`s your misunderstanding of Polish history , you can`t know it just by reading some wiki at random .

About the facts , if you say something let it be compatible with facts . You can`t formul;ate comments because it is convenient for you .

Then, the actual capital city of the city was not confirmed by any act. Warsaw was not officially the capital and to the fall in 1795

I translated a part just for your need - http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Warszawy

And now I have got something nice to read , just for you , Harry ; after reading this , you will sink under tonnes of utter rubbish you have been blabbering for the last few days.

Nice reading Harry ;)

source :

http://www.yivoinstitute.org/downloads/Warsaw.pdf

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Warsaw.html

♂ [Suspended]

Jul 19, 11, 10:37 #252

Marynka11:

Jews were allowed to live legally in Warsaw since 1768.

Certain Jews only and only in certain areas and only if they obeyed certain rules which Gentiles did not need to obey.

Monia:

Thats right , but it was still unofficial capital , that`s your misunderstanding of Polish history , you can`t know it just by reading some wiki at random .

And to attempt to prove your point, you direct us to a wiki.
Sorry dear lady, but I think I'll take the word of the city's official website over that of somebody who either doesn't know that there are no restored houses on a certain street in Warsaw or who knows that there are none but anyway claims that all but one house on the street have been restored.

Bzibzioh:

And, of course this site would never have an interest to promote their city :)

I suggest that you write to them and complain. No doubt they like a laugh as much as the next man.

Monia	Jul 19, 11, 10:54 #253
Harry: And to attempt to prove your point, you direct us to a wiki. Well , it is internet I can`t open up for you my library , dude . Use some better argument . Have you had some fun reading sources I`ve given you ?

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Jul 19, 11, 11:02 #254
Monia: Well , it is internet I can`t open up for you my library , dude . Use some better argument . So do we believe some wiki or the official website of the capital city of Warsaw? No I haven't bothered looking at your sources.

Monia	Jul 19, 11, 11:03 #255
Please do, it is Jewish source , not wiki , BTW

♂

Edited by: Nathan Jul 19, 11, 11:51 #256

Nathan:

Exactly, this is what it was - but not a capital.

Oh come on, Nat, you confuse me now :)
Monia, here is some info from Wikipedia about Krakiw:

Kraków has traditionally been one of the leading centres of Polish academic, cultural, and artistic life and is one of Poland's most important economic centres. It was the capital of Poland from 1038 to 1596; the capital of the Grand Duchy of Kraków from 1846 to 1918; and the capital of Kraków Voivodeship from the 14th century to 1999. It is now the capital of the Lesser Poland Voivodeship.

Another one:

In 1596, Sigismund III of the Swedish House of Vasa moved the capital of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth from Kraków to Warsaw.[27]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krak%C3%B3w

Monia:

About the facts , if you say something let it be compatible with facts . You can`t formul;ate comments because it is convenient for you .

Monia:

that`s your misunderstanding of Polish history , you can`t know it just by reading some wiki at random .

PF is a type of a forum where one cannot argue without being either anti-Polish or complete blank tablet about the greatest history the world has ever witnessed.

♂ [Suspended]

Jul 19, 11, 13:46 #257

Monia:

Have you had some fun reading sources I`ve given you ?

The very first sentence of the first source you give:
"WARSAW. capital of Poland from 1596 to 1794 and again since 1918." So the text in no way supports the claim that Warsaw was not the capital of independent Poland from 1596 onwards. And then it goes on to list all the examples of Jews being banned from and/or thrown out of Warsaw when Warsaw was under Polish rule.

But those years are interesting, aren't they? In 1526 Masovia annexed by Poland and so Warsaw came under Polish rule then and that it was under Polish rule from 1526 to 1794 (268 years) and from 1918 to 1939 (21 years) and from 1945 to 2011 (66 years), so Warsaw has been under Polish rule for a total of 355 years. And Jews were banned from living in the city from 1527 to 1768 (241 years). This means that for more than two thirds of the time that Warsaw has been under Polish rule, Jews were not allowed to live in it.

♀ [Suspended]

Jul 19, 11, 14:16 #258

Harry:

Who to believe? A Canadian who helps keep Crown Royal in business or the official website of the Capital City of Warsaw?

Who to believe? Kraków's tour guide or British clown/amateurish history buff/wikipedia "expert"?

Harry:

I suggest that you write to them and complain. No doubt they like a laugh as much as the next man.

No, you write and complain about misleading you and making you look like incompetent ass. Yes, they will laugh that some moron bought that crap :)))

Nathan:

Monia, here is some info from Wikipedia about Krakiw:

You are both really funny with this blind faith in wikipedia. It's not scientific, just pop-knowledge, you know. What about *actually* studying history of Poland, like I did?

♂ [Suspended]

Jul 19, 11, 14:44 #259

Bzibzioh:

Who to believe? Kraków's tour guide or British clown/amateurish history buff/wikipedia "expert"?

So you think we should to take the supposed word of an un-named Krakow tour guide over what the official website of the capital city of Warsaw says. Pour me a glass of that whiskey please.

Bzibzioh:

What about *actually* studying history of Poland, like I did?

Really? So you're then well aware of the fact that for more than two thirds of the time that Warsaw has been under Polish rule, Jews were not allowed to live in it.

♂

Jul 19, 11, 14:59 #260

Nathan:

PF is a type of a forum where one cannot argue without being either anti-Polish or complete blank tablet about the greatest history the world has ever witnessed.

The lads onto something there ....:)

Blargh, Krakow tour guides are sooo thick,this one I knew told our group that the Whale Bones were from a Dragon..............muppet,everyone knows Dragons left Poland in the 3rd century...............................

Marynka11Threads: 8 Posts: 1,447 Joined: Nov 3, 10 ♀	Edited by: Marynka11 Jul 19, 11, 15:40 #261
Harry: Certain Jews only and only in certain areas and only if they obeyed certain rules which Gentiles did not need to obey. Other than not being allowed to form authorized communities I haven't heard of any other rules in Warsaw in free Poland.

POLAND . The Unofficial Guide	Unanswered \| Archives
POLAND . The Unofficial Guide	Polska, Polonia, Poland	Witamy, Guest \| PF Members \| Gold Members

Home \| Unanswered \| Archives \| Random \| Statistics	Time in Poland: 18:21 / May 26
About Us \| Contact Us \| Rules, Privacy \| Poland Advertising	© 2005-12 PolishForums.com