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Why would the [old] Russian murderers not come forward and bear witness? Re Katyn.


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gwrobelThreads: 10
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 Jan 22, 11, 19:00    #1
I'm an American of Polish roots and since my trip to Ciecina to visit family 3 years ago I have since done much study of the history of Poland.


I recently finished reading Katyn (by Allen Paul).............and i did rcv the DVD of the movie for Christmas and will view that in the near future.

one of the nagging questions in my mind is:

There were many Russian murderers directly involved in this deplorable event. One would think that to varying degrees many of them would have been burdened with guilt, plagued with nightmares, and emotionally crippled with memories of their terrible contribution to the crime of killing one at a time so many defenseless individuals.

As these Russians grew old and faced the end of their lives why would they not come forward and bear witness?

Why would so many choose to live their lives and eventually go to their grave without making an attempt to cleanse their soul and/or clear their conscious so that at least in death they could have some semblance of personal peace?

skysoulmateThreads: 41
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Edited by: skysoulmate  Jan 22, 11, 20:30    #2
Those were thugs and murderers and most of them had no conscience. A family member on my mother's side perished in Katyń and my family never forgot it, even when the communist authorities denied the Russians were responsible. You have to remember that the ideologies of nazism and communism are basically the same ideologies. One based on your race and the other on your class.

:(

How many SS officers felt guilty about the crimes they'd committed? How many Soviet NKVD (KGB or today FSB) officers felt guilty about the atrocities they were guilty of? In order to feel guilty you must have a conscience or a heart if you prefer. Those thugs certainly didn't.

PS.
Not all of those henchmen were Russians, some were Ukrainians, some were Lithuanians, etc. and sadly some were Poles. In fact, the person who created Cheka which later turned into NKVD (KGB/FSB) was Felix Dzerzhinsky (Polish: Feliks Dzieræyński), a Polish noble who was a disgusting and a murderous traitor. I don't know if any of the executioners in Katyń were Poles and I doubt it but as I said, there were Polish KGB henchmen too.
sobieskiThreads: 82
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 Jan 22, 11, 20:53    #3
This question could equally be asked to the commanders of the Einsatzgruppen. Almost all of them highly cultured, educated and one of them (Arthur Nebe) involved in an plot against Hitler...
And somehow they switched off their conscience, forgot the basic morals of society and became part of a murder machine.
Philip Kerr, although writing fiction, portrayed these men quite well I think.
joepilsudskiThreads: 44
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 Jan 22, 11, 21:05    #4
gwrobel:
As these Russians grew old and faced the end of their lives why would they not come forward and bear witness?


I would say that most of the Russians used for the slaughter probably perished during the war....One way or another.
skysoulmateThreads: 41
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Edited by: skysoulmate  Jan 22, 11, 21:23    #5
G Wróbel - you can present your questions to Stanis³aw Jankowski, a historian who has researched the Katyń massacre.

http://www.rememberkatyn1940.pl/faq_en.xml

(the bottom of the page)
isthatu2Threads: 13
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 Jan 22, 11, 22:29    #6
gwrobel:
One would think that to varying degrees many of them would have been burdened with guilt, plagued with nightmares, and emotionally crippled with memories of their terrible contribution to the crime of killing one at a time so many defenseless individuals.

True Believers rarely suffer these dilemas. Im sure a few,a small handfull of them maybe ended up sucking the end of a nagant but the vast majority probably felt the burning glow of (false) righteousness till their dying days.
A former NKVD man was interviewed for the BBC,he'd been in charge of a" blocking detachment" ,the scum who machine gunned Russian soldiers if an attack failed or faltered, and he showed no sign of contrition,Voyna,war.....
CdowborMThreads: 1
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 Jan 24, 11, 17:07    #7
Josef Dowbor-Musnicki... I am Christopher Dowbor-Musnicki - descendent of Josef - and am currently writing a dissertation on Josef Dowbor-Musnicki, Janina Lewandowska (daughter of Josef) and the Katyn Massacre, I am struggling to find information in English on these subjects and I was wondering if anyone was either interested in this or would be able to provide me with information to continue with my research.
skysoulmateThreads: 41
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 Jan 25, 11, 12:10    #8
CdowborM:
Josef Dowbor-Musnicki... I am Christopher Dowbor-Musnicki - descendent of Josef - and am currently writing a dissertation on Josef Dowbor-Musnicki, Janina Lewandowska (daughter of Josef) and the Katyn Massacre, I am struggling to find information in English on these subjects and I was wondering if anyone was either interested in this or would be able to provide me with information to continue with my research.





Why don't you look 2 posts up and contact the historian who knows this issue way better than anyone of us here??
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 25, 11, 12:13    #9
gwrobel:
There were many Russian murderers directly involved in this deplorable event. One would think that to varying degrees many of them would have been burdened with guilt, plagued with nightmares, and emotionally crippled with memories of their terrible contribution to the crime of killing one at a time so many defenseless individuals.

As these Russians grew old and faced the end of their lives why would they not come forward and bear witness?


I actually wonder the same question whenever another memorial day is coming up and veterans march proudly in Moscow and elsewhere, smiling, waving, getting kissed by grateful grand daugthers etc....wondering how many rapists and NKVD types are between them.

They won the war...everything else doesn't count.

Looking inside, doubting, regretting and mourning is for losers! Fact!
skysoulmateThreads: 41
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Edited by: skysoulmate  Jan 25, 11, 12:25    #10
Bratwurst Boy:
Looking inside, doubting, regretting and mourning is for losers...


...and for human beings.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 25, 11, 12:28    #11
skysoulmate:
...and for human beings.


Human beings prefer to march proudly in victory parades to hanging their heads in shame...believe me!
skysoulmateThreads: 41
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 Jan 25, 11, 12:39    #12
Bratwurst Boy:
Human beings prefer to march proudly in victory parades to hanging their heads in shame...believe me!


Then they are no human beings. Believe me.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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 Jan 25, 11, 12:46    #13
skysoulmate:
Then they are no human beings. Believe me.


What's un-human to want to belong to the victors?
skysoulmateThreads: 41
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 Jan 25, 11, 12:50    #14
Bratwurst Boy:
What's un-human to want to belong to the victors?


It is inhumane not to feel guilt when innocent people have died.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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 Jan 25, 11, 12:55    #15
skysoulmate:
It is inhumane not to feel guilt when innocent people have died.


The flyers of the nukes to Hiroshima or Nagasaki are inhuman? The praised veterans of the british bomber command who laid whole towns to waste are inhuman? The folks of the soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan?

A lot of people would become inhuman after your definition....the majority I would think.
skysoulmateThreads: 41
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 Jan 25, 11, 13:05    #16
I've been to Iraq and Afghanistan so I guess I'm inhuman. There you have it. You missed my point.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 25, 11, 14:03    #17
skysoulmate:
You missed my point.


Well...if your point had been that not feeling regret is inhuman then not.

Because the far majority of any victorious (or still fighting) country can't be arsed to feel any regrets whatsoever about the enemies casualties.
I wouldn't call them inhuman still....
skysoulmateThreads: 41
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Edited by: skysoulmate  Jan 25, 11, 14:07    #18
Bratwurst Boy:
Because the far majority of any victorious (or still fighting) country can't be arsed to feel any regrets whatsoever about the enemies casualties.


Countries cannot feel, the citizens of those countries can. Have you ever talked to anyone who's been in a war? Whose actions one way or the other caused death? Try that, you might be surprised.
Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34
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 Jan 25, 11, 14:15    #19
Bratwurst Boy:
Because the far majority of any victorious

drugs, everyone needs to be drugged at some point BB. Either by visions... parades... medicine... sex... or gaming! Humans are beign drugged in one way or another... Don't you think they had to get those "drugs" for a reason?
isthatu2Threads: 13
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 Jan 25, 11, 18:24    #20
skysoulmate:
Why don't you look 2 posts up and contact the historian who knows this issue way better than anyone of us here??

This is a merged thread,there was no two posts up when the person asked the question by opening a new thread.........
Bratwurst Boy:
Looking inside, doubting, regretting and mourning is for losers! Fact!

Exactly,for 70 years now you guys have been told to despise your forefathers actions,for 70 years the Russians have been taught to glorify their forefathers,unless your name is dugashvilii.....
True believers in Germany would go to jail if they said,sure,I dont give a monkeys how many jews I shot,fek em,the swine.....where as the true believer in Russia was only doing what was right for mother Russia....Vojna...

BTW BB,Ive known quite a few Bomber command veterns,most of them feel sick about what they learned theyd done exactly post war,but,they can still say they would have done the same again . Right or wrong they are free to express doubt.
TrevekThreads: 33
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Edited by: Trevek  Jan 27, 11, 21:28    #21
gwrobel:
As these Russians grew old and faced the end of their lives why would they not come forward and bear witness?


It would mean their sweet little grand-daughters would know them as murderers, as well as which, from their point of view, what's the incentive?

skysoulmate:
How many SS officers felt guilty about the crimes they'd committed?


A good point. Even today many can't see what all the fuss is about.


I think it's also important to realise that some people of that generation in Russia may have had their own horror stories about the Poles (many Russian prisoners died during the Polish-Soviet war). real or not, such stories fuel later 'vengence'. They may never have felt they were doing anything than avenging dead Russians.
BozThreads: -
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 Jan 28, 11, 11:14    #22
skysoulmate:
Those were thugs and murderers and most of them had no conscience.

All Eastern 'Reality' - as were more recently UB's / SB's
Practically an insignificance in the Land of Death Camps.
Needs to be seen in context.
southernThreads: 116
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 Jan 28, 11, 11:16    #23
gwrobel:
Why would the [old] Russian murderers not come forward and bear witness?


Simply because they were most likely killed too after completing their task.
NatasaThreads: 7
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Edited by: Natasa  Jan 29, 11, 09:48    #24
skysoulmate:
Then they are no human beings. Believe me.


The oldest trick in the book, dehumanize to kill without guilt. Problems occur though.

Example:

In Croatia in WWII Ustashe (Croatian army) killed, better slaughtered more than a half of million civilians (mostly Serbs, but Jews too).
They had no problem to do that because they did it in the name of the GOOD.
How that logic collapses....a short story

Ustashe (Croats) used to organize the competition in slaughtering of Serbs in death camps, and I read the story of one of them. His confession. He was competing with 3 of his fellow Ustashe ...his story...goes like this ... that night He felt like he is in a trance, he already cut throats of 1100 of them after one few hours, and felt like on the heaven, blessed he never felt that good in his life....by chance Ustasha gazed at some older farmer who was awkwardly calm looking at the vicitms who were dying in the worst agony. Ustasha suddenly felt like a piece of stone and couldn't move. he went to the old farmer and found out that his name was Vuka¹in from some village and that he was brought to Jasenovac from his daily work. Vuka¹in (Serb) answered everything ustasha asked him with not understandable peace, serenity which was hurting butcher even more than all the horrible yells of the others. He wanted to make him suffer worse than others to get back the feeling he had , the joy of their pain. he ordered old man to yell.. Long live Ante P. (president of the state).., and that he will cut his ear if he doesn't do that. Vuka¹in was silent. He cut his ear off. than he told him again to say it or the other ear will be off, old man was silent again, after that he cut his nose off,.....and then he told him that He will cut his heart out with the knife and the old man looked at him, through him and slowly said :

" Just do your job son"....Ustasha says that he felt after that completely lost, that he jumped on the old man and cut his eyes out, his throat from the ear to the ear and kicked his body into the pit. "....

Author of this words later explains that he couldn't kill that evening anybody anymore, and that he lost his peace, whenever he tried to kill again he saw the look of that old man he felt weakness and gave up. he heard in his nightmares " Just do your job, son" .

This person was eaten by a guilt for killing that one person.

Why? Why after thousands of killed (obviously for him a cattle, not human beings) he felt guilt?
I think he saw a human being.

The answer for this confusion I think lies in in the tendency of most big political ideologies (communism, fascism, nazi, and others) to define a supreme good in an arbitrary way ( which is often not good at all) and manipulate with the definition of good and evil. That assumes existence of different criteria to define good (WRONG itself, we all know what is good and what is bad), and lack of universal respect for what good really is, which allows exactly that anything can be promoted to the most important GOOD of all, and to achieve that most important goal everything is allowed and by that logic good. It is that that arbitrary criteria allows to the ideologies to place numerous "ideals" in that arbitrary GOOD and than everything is OK if it's done for those ideals.

The problem with this is that those who do those things don't recognize new evil they are creating in the name of the arbitrary! good.
Facts are usually redefined to fit the ideals, and other groups are mostly dehumanized and labeled as evil.

It always proves to be a wrong logic and new evil itself (history).




Bratwurst Boy:
The flyers of the nukes to Hiroshima or Nagasaki are inhuman? The praised veterans of the british bomber command who laid whole towns to waste are inhuman? The folks of the soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan?

A lot of people would become inhuman after your definition....the majority I would think.


I agree with you ;)

All that is very very human.

stop the earth i want to get off
plk123Threads: 30
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Edited by: plk123  Jan 30, 11, 08:17    #25
Natasa:
(communism, fascism, nazi, and others) to define a supreme good in an arbitrary way ( which is often not good at all) and manipulate with the definition of good and evil. That assumes existence of different criteria to define good (WRONG itself, we all know what is good and what is bad), and lack of universal respect for what good really is, which allows exactly that anything can be promoted to the most important GOOD of all, and to achieve that most important goal everything is allowed and by that logic good. It is that that arbitrary criteria allows to the ideologies to place numerous "ideals" in that arbitrary GOOD and than everything is OK if it's done for those ideals.

The problem with this is that those who do those things don't recognize new evil they are creating in the name of the arbitrary! good.
Facts are usually redefined to fit the ideals, and other groups are mostly dehumanized and labeled as evil.
It always proves to be a wrong logic and new evil itself (history).

democracy/republic too.. iraq - war on terror.. etc...



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