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Piłsudski, like Hitler and Stalin (according to some Lithuanians)

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posts: 105

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Edited by: Mr Grunwald Mar 24, 10, 03:38 #1

A/Some Lithuanians have made post stamps of Piłsudski side by side with Hitler and Stalin

Half a million Lithuanians were victims of Soviet crimes and 200 thousand Lithuanian Jews experienced Hitler's work

While Piłsudski...
He considered himself an Lithuanian and was quite positive towards the Independence of Lithuania as a national state itself (Wilno,Vilnius is an other matter :))
Also Polish state or Poles have never done any genocide on Lithuanians, while pro-German Lithuanians did hunt Poles and Jews alike.

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/38,451390_Pilsudski_jak_Hitler_i_Stalin.html
^
Link above |

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07 ♂	Edited by: plk123 Mar 24, 10, 04:51 #2
"To dzieło chorego człowieka."

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Mar 24, 10, 06:08 #3
plk123: "To dzieło chorego człowieka." Thank god they said that :)

skysoulmateThreads: 41 Posts: 3,039 Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂	Mar 24, 10, 06:53 #4
Mr Grunwald: A/Some Lithuanians have made post stamps of Piłsudski side by side with Hitler and Stalin Yeah, but they probably didn't mean the real Joseph Piłsudski but rather our own Stormfront spokesperson and PF member Joe Pilsudski. ;) Just kidding'. Well, sort of...

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09 ♂	Mar 26, 10, 21:24 #5
In view of the policies Pilsudski conducted towards Lithuania, I see no difference among the three. Either one wanted to grab a chunk of Lithuania to himself and no surprise the family picture contains all its members :)

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 26, 10, 21:49 #6

The infamous envelope says "Didieji lietuvių tautos genocido organizatoriai" meaning
"The great organizers of the Lithuanian nation genocide" - J.Stalinas A.Hitleris
J.Pilsudskis.

Piłsudski was born in Lithuania and considered himself a Lithuanian (in a proper
Polish sense of the word). He never, ever organized anything that could be called
a "genocide" of Lithuanian nation.

So if today some frustrated retardas, looking for some attentionis, is talking nonsensas
comparingas Pilsudskis to Stalinas for examplas then we can only pity such idiotismis.

Nathan:

In view of the policies Pilsudski conducted towards Lithuania, I see no difference among the three.

If you really see no difference in the policy and conduct of Piłsudski and Stalin towards
Lithuania then, I'm afraid, you are putting yourself in a very uncomfortable postition of
a complete and utter idiot and I don't believe that it's a suitable position for you, Nathan.

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Mar 26, 10, 21:59 #7

Torq:

He never, ever organized anything that could be called
a "genocide" of Lithuanian nation.

Agreed.

One the one hand he had a vision that had been informed by the great days of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

On the other hand, it was hardly ignoble of Lithuanians to want independence.

Torq:

So if today some frustrated retardas, looking for some attentionis, is talking nonsensas
comparingas Pilsudskis to Stalinas for examplas then we can only pity such idiotismis.

To compare him to two of the century's worst mass-murderers is shocking. He wasn't a Chairman Mao or a Pol Pot by any means - he's probably the one Polish leader that history will remember in a good light.

In fact that envelope with the three of them is so bizarre that it can only have been meant as a provocation.

Filios1Threads: 15 Posts: 1,953 Joined: Nov 13, 07 ♂	Mar 26, 10, 22:05 #8
Nathan: contains all its members :) No, they should replace Pilsudski with some barbarian Ukrainian peasant. I bet any given Uke from WW2, for example near Wolyn, murdered, and was at cause for more deaths than Pilsudski in 20s. Some nice picture of some peasant with a scythe, and a nearby corpse of child, or women. (these were favorite Ukrainian targets)

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Edited by: SeanBM Mar 26, 10, 22:08 #9

The Lithuanian Embassy in Warsaw has refused to comment on envelopes at the Main Post Office in Vilnius, comparing a Polish national hero with Stalin and Hitler.

The envelopes also accuse Polish resistance fighters of carrying out ethnic cleansing in Lithuania in 1944 and of Poland being “a strategic occupier instead of a strategic partner of Lithuania,” with Poland’s policy allegedly “radiating with chauvinism and imperialism’’.

The news.pl

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 26, 10, 22:27 #10

jonni:

On the other hand, it was hardly ignoble of Lithuanians to want
independence.

He never denied Lithuanians the right to their independence. He wanted to incorporate
the Wilno area into Poland, because he considered it a Polish land - we can argue if he
was right or not, but to put him alongside Hitler and Stalin is pure idiocy.

jonni:

One the one hand he had a vision that had been informed by the great days of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

One of the most common misconceptions about Polish-Lithuanian commowealth is the idea
that Poland was denying Lithuania its independence. If you listen to some Lithuanians
today it sounds as if we were occupying their country which is basically not true.

Let me explain...

Lithuania was until 1791 (shortly before the second partition of Poland) an independent
country. It wasn't Polish but Lithuanian armies stationing there, public income
went entirely to the Lithuanian treasury, not the Polish one . Lithuanians payed
taxes to support their own country, not Poland. Their soldiers were fighting and dying
for the Great Duchy of Lithuania and not for Poland. Poles did not rule Lithuania! Lithuania
governed itself, having until 1791 their own army, treasury and their own ministries.
The government of Kingdom of Poland was not at all the government of Lithuania.
Royal Chancellor, Royal Treasurer of Royal Hetman could not order in Lithuania because
there were separate Lithuanian Hetman, Treasurer and Chancellor. Lithuania was
governed by Lithuanians! From the puniest, tiniest office clerk up to the Great
Chancellor, all the administrative hierarchy and power was in Lithuanian hands and they
didn't take any orders from Poland.

Common was the king and the Sejm Walny (joint parliament, but still Lithuania had its
own sejmik - local parliament). This was a result of Lithuanian dynasty ruling in Poland.
In that matter - Lithuania was in power and Poland was subordinated.

I could go on, but the basic fact is that Poland lost more from its union with
Lithuania than we gained. We were involved in constant wars in the East,
we shed our blood and wasted our energy on the eastern steppes without
getting much in return instead of consolidating and strengthening our position
in the West, integrating with the civilization where we belong.
Too bad some Lithuanians today, full of complexes about their country and history,
can not even show an elementary gratitude for what Poland has done for them.

jonni:

it can only have been meant as a provocation

Of course. The provocation payed with Russian money. Russians are doing
what they can to keep Poland, Lithuania and Ukraine in hostility towards
one another and they are willing to spend a lot of money to prevent our
countries and societies coming closer together again.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Mar 26, 10, 22:40 #11
Torq: we can argue if he was right or not, but to put him alongside Hitler and Stalin is pure idiocy. Yes Torq: If you listen to some Lithuanians today it sounds as if we were occupying their country which is basically not true. I have listened to Lithuanians go on about this ad infitum. Do you remember the fuss during Wałęsa's presidential visit?

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Edited by: Nathan Mar 26, 10, 22:45 #12

Torq:

If you really see no difference in the policy and conduct of Piłsudski and Stalin towards
Lithuania

Of course, they had their own agendas and I don't try to compare them. But for an average Lithuanian they are fcuks whom they don't respect even as humans. No wonder to find these on a one postcard in Lithuania.

Torq:

So if today some frustrated retardas, looking for some attentionis, is talking nonsensas
comparingas Pilsudskis to Stalinas for examplas then we can only pity such idiotismis.

Don't see why it suits you to be idiotic and ridicule a language. There is plenty to laugh at your own.

Filios1:

No, they should replace Pilsudski with some barbarian Ukrainian peasant.

They won't do that. You know why? Because Ukrainian peasants didn't invade Lithuania and didn't steal their capital. Regarding scythes and other agricultural appliances...well, the factories producing guns and other ammunition were not working for Ukrainian peasants. There was nothing else to grab. And as always women, women and kids. Beautiful Polish stories ;)

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 26, 10, 22:47 #13

jonni:

Do you remember the fuss during Wałęsa's presidential visit?

I'm not quite sure what exactly do you have in mind, but I'm quite familiar with the
"Lithuanian version of history" (or I should say with the version of some frustrated,
hatred-filled, Lithuanian nationalists)

Nathan:

Don't see why it suits you to be idiotic and ridicule a language. There is plenty to laugh at your own.

Well, at least we don't go and write A. Hitlerowski or J. Stalinowicz, but Lithuanians
write Hitleris, Stalinas, Pilsudskis, which is quite funny but the fact that they deny
Poles the right to spell their names in Polish is not that funny.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Mar 26, 10, 22:55 #14
Torq: I'm not quite sure what exactly do you have in mind, but I'm quite familiar with the "Lithuanian version of history" (or I should say with the version of some frustrated, hatred-filled, Lithuanian nationalists) It was exactly that sort of thing. A nasty speech in Parliament while he was present.

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09 ♂	Mar 26, 10, 23:28 #15
Torq: they deny Poles the right to spell their names in Polish is not that funny. Romans thousands years ago were saying: si fueris Romae, Romano vivitomore; si fueris alibi, vivito sicut ibi. Do you think you are better than Romans?

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 26, 10, 23:34 #16

Torq:

they deny Poles the right to spell their names in Polish is not that funny

Nathan:

si fueris Romae, Romano vivitomore; si fueris alibi, vivito sicut ibi.

Oh, right! That is why in Italy today the names of Hitler and Stalin are spelled Hitlerini
and Stalini and in Greece, for example, we have Staliniannis and Hitlerdopulos and Jan
Kowalski receiving Danish citizenship automatically becomes Kovalsksen...

...no, wait a minute - no other civilized country in the world denies their minority
citizens to spell their names in their language. Only Lithuania does it, so you can
take your Latin proverbs and shove them up your... nose.

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Mar 27, 10, 06:09 #17

Torq:

Only Lithuania does it, so you can
take your Latin proverbs and shove them up your... nose

Before I do that, Torq, tell me how Ukrainians living in Poland spell their names in Polish passports? Why they don't use Cyrillic and have to transliterate into Polish? Because this is the language of your country. If you come into Ukraine you won't be using "rz" or "sz" anymore. Instead you use "з" and "ш" respectively. If some limited brains have problem with that, they can follow your advice and shove their attitude into their ar*es. The same pertains to Lithuania. Stop being a pig and learn to respect other country's laws. Simple as that. But in Poland you may put 10 "przy" in your last name and nobody I hope will have problem with that.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 27, 10, 08:34 #18

Nathan: tell me how Ukrainians living in Poland spell their names in Polish
passports? Why they don't use Cyrillic and have to transliterate into Polish?

Having two separate alphabets is a completely different case. Transliteration is just
transliteration but the name stays the same. That's why we write Bandera
with Latin alphabet (simply a transliteration) and not Banderowski. Lithuanians on the
other hand add their "ius", "as" or "is" suffixes to Polish names to make them look like
Lithuanian. See the difference now, or will you still pretend to be an idiot?

Nathan: The same pertains to Lithuania. Stop being a pig and learn to respect
other country's laws. Simple as that.

No it doesn't (as was shown above). Stop being a pig and learn to respect people's roots
and family names. Simple as that.

kh siarko sanokThreads: 4 Posts: 70 Joined: Jan 13, 10 ♂	Mar 27, 10, 08:42 #19
Are you POLISH.

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Mar 27, 10, 15:33 #20

Torq: Stop being a pig and learn to respect people's roots
and family names.

J.Stalinas, A.Hitleris, J.Pilsudskis is how Lithuanians write the names of these individuals. I bet no Lithuanian is interested in making anyone of them to appear having a Lithuanian origin by adding "-is" or "-as" at the end of their names. What do you think?! ;)

Torq: Lithuanians on the other hand add their "ius", "as" or "is" suffixes to Polish names to make them look like Lithuanian.

This is the way they do to every name out there. This is one of the rules of their grammar.
And you have to obey it as it is not your country's backyard, where you can show your special status or arrogance. Listen to Romans.
P.S. You called their capital "Wilno" for centuries and still do it now, correct? Why don't you use appropiate name: "Vilnius"? Why do you drop letters? I will just give you an example of Ukrainian spelling: "Вільнюс". It closely reflects the way Lithuanians pronounce it.

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Mar 27, 10, 15:44 #21

Wilno is just the Polish name for it, Nathan. A bit like Kowno for Kaunas. The more important issue is the wrangling between Poles and Lithuanians with regards to education. There are tensions there.

What I've noticed is that many Poles play on the Słowacki/Mickiewicz connection to bolster their claims but they are but 2 men. Pan Tadeusz talked more about Lithuania as his love and you can read the inscription at the back of the vodka bottle. I got a guided tour of Vilnius and the Polish tour guide often made the point that they felt Lithuanian. Still, that's not the definitive criteria as we know.

TrevekThreads: 33 Posts: 2,155 Joined: May 21, 08 ♂	Mar 27, 10, 18:42 #22
Torq: Well, at least we don't go and write A. Hitlerowski or J. Stalinowicz, but Lithuanians write Hitleris, Stalinas, Pilsudskis, But you can write about Prince Karol, instead of Prince Charles.

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Edited by: Nathan Mar 27, 10, 19:19 #23

Seanus: The more important issue is the wrangling between Poles and Lithuanians with regards to education. There are tensions there.

I hope they would finally appreciate what it feels like. But Lithuanians are angels in their current minority policies as compared to Poles in XVI-XVII centuries and 1920-1939. Nobody burns churches, nobody converts them into institutions of another confession, nobody burns libraries sending strzelcy groups, nobody forbids the publications. Just learn the language and follow the rules of Lithuanian grammar - how hard can it be??????

Ukrainians in Poland protest against intension to close the Ukrainian-language broadcast "Telenovyny" ("TV News") at Polish public TV channel TVP 3.
Head of the Association of Ukrainians in Poland (AUP) Petro Tyma informed "Lvivska gazeta" that he applied to the National Television and Radio Broadcasting Council of Poland and the state secretary of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Administration with a request to prevent violation of active laws and international obligations of Poland concerning the national minorities.
The AUP has already protested previously against attempts of the public mass media new administration to transfer the Ukrainian broadcasts to unsuitable time, reduce their time, impose subjects and take the prepared programs off the air.
The TV journal, which informs about life of Ukrainian people in Poland, has been existing at the Polish television since 1995, and since April, 2002, the "Telenovyny" is broadcasted twice per month for all-Polish audience with thirteen minutes long programs.

26 minutes per month! How can you reduce that amount of time?! and they weep that Lithuanians change their names?! c. 300,000 minority of Ukrainians (I think the numbers are higher, because in 1947 in Operation "Vistula" they forcefully deported 200,000 Ukrainians into Western Poland and it was 63 years ago, 3 generations past) don't have an opportunity to watch Ukrainian news for 26 minutes a month. I don't talk about language and education issues. Just simply having a program. How can they cry in Lithuania after that?

According to surveys conducted in the spring of 1990, 47% of Poles in Lithuania supported the pro-Soviet Communist party (in contrast to 8% support among ethnic Lithuanians), while 35% supported Lithuanian independence.[28]

It seems like somebody had good life in Lithuania under communism regime. The same was with Russians in Ukraine. They got always better possitions and access to education. They weren't eager to support Ukrainian independance, because then the competition would start on the same line. This way communism always kept tension of everyone against everyone, but not against itself.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Mar 27, 10, 20:33 #24
Many Poles may not think that Lithuanian is worth learning. It is quite different! It is funny that some Poles insist on foreigners learning some Polish, or at least saying they should know it.

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Mar 28, 10, 00:58 #25

Nathan: But Lithuanians are angels in their current minority policies as compared to Poles in XVI-XVII centuries

You're not serious. Are you ?
How can you compare "medieval" standards with today
Union's requirements ?

Nathan: (Ukrainians) don't have an opportunity to watch Ukrainian news for 26 minutes a month

And what about Polish minority in Ukraine ?
Maybe I'm wrong but I'm not aware of any Polish language TV program for 300 000 or more Poles still living there.
Just repaying in kind.

Nathan: It seems like somebody had good life in Lithuania under communism regime.

I don't wish my enemy this kind of good life.
It's a pity the situation is still the same or even worse today.

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Edited by: Nathan Mar 28, 10, 04:59 #26

Seanus: Many Poles may not think that Lithuanian is worth learning. It is quite different!

How long does it take to pack suit-cases and buy a one-way ticket? A day and minimal efforts. Nobody holds them. Use it or lose it. How hard can it be to learn a language of a country you were born in or came to live in? Only arrogant, chauvinistic and disrespectful bunch is capable to present their ridiculous claims of impossibility of learning a language which feeds you.

Seanus: It is funny

It is sad.

Borrka: You're not serious. Are you ?
How can you compare "medieval" standards with today
Union's requirements ?

You missed my 1920-1939 period, Borrka. The previous centuries I mentioned only to show a vast knowledge of chauvinistic approach you already had in the 20th century in regards to languages and faith expressions.

Borrka: And what about Polish minority in Ukraine ?

What about it?

Borrka: Maybe I'm wrong but I'm not aware of any Polish language TV program for 300 000 or more Poles still living there.
Just repaying in kind.

Did you hear any protests of Poles in Ukraine with preventing them to have their TV? I would be interested to see any link, Borrka, if you could provide. Personnaly at home where I used to live, we had 2 Polish programs all day long!!!!!!!!!!, not 26 minutes a month.

Borrka: I don't wish my enemy this kind of good life.

Somehow 47% were eager to stay there than in independant Lithuania.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Mar 28, 10, 11:08 #27
Well, you have a point. If they claim Lithuania so vehemently (as almost all I have talked to do) then they should learn the language. Piłsudski tried so hard but was met with fierce resistance. OK, it is pretty sad when seen in one way.

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Mar 28, 10, 11:25 #28

Nathan: You missed my 1920-1939 period, Borrka.

Just my rhetorics.
Prewar human rights regulations were even not "remotely close" to the EU standards so referring to them while talking todays problems does not make too much sense for me.
That's what I meant - I don't try to justify Polish prewar attitude towards Ukrainians.

Nathan: Did you hear any protests of Poles in Ukraine with preventing them to have their TV?

What I hear are rather everyday survival problems on some very low level so how should "Ukrainian" Poles pay their own TV ?
It was Polish state bearing all the expenses of Ukrainian programs in Poland so we could expect some return service from your authorities.

Polish TV (from Poland) in Lviv via satellite, cable or cross-border broadcast is exactly the same what Poland "offers" to our Ukrainian citizens.

Nathan: Somehow 47% were eager to stay there than in independant Lithuania.

When ?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Mar 28, 10, 11:31 #29
That strategy rarely works, Borrka. We see still that the 'I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine' doesn't pay dividends. America have given you no shield. At least with Ukrainians you have hope if the dialogue is right. There is more of an even footing to negotiations.

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08 ♂	Mar 28, 10, 11:51 #30
Seanus: That strategy rarely works, Borrka. I have to agree with you Seanus but while I'm all for giving this news service back to "our" Ukrainians, in the long run one can expect some more "balanced" cooperation with Kiev.

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