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Piłsudski, like Hitler and Stalin (according to some Lithuanians)

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posts: 105

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 3, 10, 14:22 #91
No need to be sorry ;) ;) I meant as a military power, Sok. They had the capacity to contain Germany and defeat her early days. It was just a bad reading of intent but hindsight is 20/20.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 3, 10, 14:24 #92
Seanus: They had the capacity to contain Germany and defeat her early days. Well, history would now write about Poland the agressor...;) And a victorious Germany would probably allowed to act like later Sovietrussia in Poland...no win situation me thinks!

♂

Apr 3, 10, 14:34 #93

It would appear to be that way. I only meant that they had the military might to take on Germany and comfortably win in 1933/34. Poland would only have needed to establish due cause, BB. I don't know about the Polish foreign office at that time but the British had swathes of evidence on potentially harmful actions of Hitler but, being British and selfish, continued down the path of trade and further profiteering.

A costly mistake as we now know.

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 3, 10, 14:42 #94

Seanus:

It would appear to be that way. I only meant that they had the military might to take on Germany and comfortably win in 1933/34

Doubtful,
Germany had still much more people, and what would a win include? In Berlin in one week and then???
Occupying a country much more populous? With a much greater industrial base? You don't think things through Seanie...

In 33/34 and later Hitler Germany had still alot of admirers in Europe and elsewhere...he "got things done", got Germany back on track again (or however you want to call it).

♂

Apr 3, 10, 14:47 #95

A win would constitute a surrender. I know what you mean and I have thought it through. A surrender would come quickly when stormed. Morale in Germany was high, yes, but you were at such a level of unpreparedness that Hitler's bluff would have been called. Hitler knew the gamble he was taking and it worked.

Hitler was effective in what he did, that's for sure. We are both critics of his but agree on that. However, he wasn't a miracle worker ;) ;)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 3, 10, 14:50 #96
Seanus: A win would constitute a surrender. I know what you mean and I have thought it through. A surrender would come quickly when stormed. You think there would be a surrender??? When? Why? Polish troops didn't had the capacity to occupy the whole of Germany (if lucky the stretch from Warsaw to Berlin). But that's about it... There would be no surrender! ;)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 3, 10, 14:54 #97
Well, I completely disagree with the time frame as proposed by Sok but it would have come sooner or later. I don't have a precise date ;) ;)

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Apr 4, 10, 00:17 #98

Bratwurst Boy:

There would be no surrender! ;)

I could have foreseen a bloodbath!
The population argument doesn't hold any grounds! Just think of 1921...
But the industrial doesn't hold any grounds either. I hope you know that German factories were mostly based to make civilian stuff? Compared to Soviet union (ww2) Soviet made tons of military equipment compared to civilian stuff (that's why land-Leese was so helpful)

Although BB don't you consider a coup de atentat or something from the officers? Then they signing a peace treaty? Piłsudski would mostly only have wanted the removal of the Nazis? (and maybe a few meters of land?) although I remember him not beeing very keen on having border troubles with the Germans in 1918

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Apr 4, 10, 00:23 #99

Well, a coup de tat (?) as your country is attacked???

And yes, population and industrial base matter....Maybe Poles would get initially inside Germany abit but the shock would wear off soon and then...I can't see an easy short win for Poland, really not!

And the longtime aftermath would be interesting to say at least, for both countries...Hitler gaining the victim status, Poland the agressor...every dead german child on the way will be shown in the media etc...

♂

Edited by: Mr Grunwald Apr 4, 10, 00:34 #100

Bratwurst Boy:

And yes, population and industrial base matter....Maybe Poles would get initially inside Germany abit

Taking over the capitol wouldn't be a bit
remember we are talking 1933/1934 here
400.000+ Polish soldiers vs max 100.000 German soldiers
If the Polish army was prepared heck maybe even 1 mill troops

That many troops can enter deeeeeep into Germany at that time no?

Bratwurst Boy:

And yes, population and industrial base matter.

You sure that if Poland drove some propaganda: Freie Bavarian! Freie Bavarasche stadt!
Katolikken! Foreenen sie! (no idea what unite is in German)

Maybe some Germans would like to have some help from Poland thanks to the finincial crisis? hmm?

Although patriotism would appear I am sure but there were still tensions in Germany no?
Also 1 very important thing, how long would it take to arm themselfs? To 1 million troops? Also what would U.K and France do if they armed themselves while Polish troops were in Germany? They could maybe declared war? That would force the German high command to send troops towards France too?

I wouldn't like to be German staff in 1934 if Germany got attacked by Poland so to say.

Also going back to the coup de etat, didn't Stauffenberg do something while holy Germany was being invaded so to speak? ;)

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 4, 10, 00:36 #101

We should play that out some time Gruni! ;)

Mr Grunwald:

Also going back to the coup de etat, didn't Stauffenberg do something while holy Germany was being invaded so to speak? ;)

Germany was the Agressor and even the most loyal officers thought Hitler was becoming mad...

But to attack a helpless country which did nothing to deserve it (till then) would make us to the new "Poles" and you to the new "Germany"! ;)

♂

Edited by: Mr Grunwald Apr 4, 10, 00:37 #102

Well if you had tried out www.Supermacy1914.com we could maybe had done that. But you didn't want to join my world conquest game: http://www.polishforums.com/off-topic-lounge-47/world-conquest-game-37 638/

Or I can make a theory test! :o

Bratwurst Boy:

To attack a helpless country which did nothing to deserve it would make us to the new "Poles" and you to the new "Germany"! ;)

Don't you remember that Germans were filled with Germany got attacked let's attack Poland?
Even then there were ppl who didn't want to join the army. Ive seen some revolts of civilians against recruitment centers in 1939 (on a video) I think it was youtube. It was long time ago so I can't remember the title unfortunately

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Apr 4, 10, 00:49 #103
And Poles would attack Germany just like that?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 4, 10, 00:50 #104
I sincerely hope not! There is no reason to squander the good work that has gone into keeping peace. Merkel and Tusk are close enough.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Apr 4, 10, 00:51 #105
Bratwurst Boy: And Poles would attack Germany just like that? Poles made uprisings just like that, Poles never needed any excuse to do anything their acts are always justified :)

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