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POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country?


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hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
Posts: 1,652
Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 06:35    #631
hague1cmaeron:
arbitrary decision. You cannot appeal to authority on this matter.


authority, what authority(:
Des EssientesThreads: 11
Posts: 2,318
Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Oct 17, 11, 06:43    #632
hague1cmaeron:
what authority

You just cited Samuel P. Huntington in post #629:
hague1cmaeron:
Mr. Huntington clearly places Poland in the west, and he should know since he is the leading theorist of this very issue
hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
Posts: 1,652
Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 06:52    #633
Des Essientes:
You just cited Samuel P. Huntington in post #629:

I see, well as in most things in life authority is everything. Indeed many a arbitrary decision has been the result of ignorant authority.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
Posts: 2,318
Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Oct 17, 11, 07:06    #634
hague1cmaeron:
well as in most things in life authority is everything.

What does that mean?
hague1cmaeron:
Indeed many a arbitrary decision has been the result of ignorant authority.

And what does that mean?
The decision this thread asks the poster to make is arbitrary because neither of the alternatives in the titular disjunction can be shown to be definitely right or wrong.
hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
Posts: 1,652
Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: hague1cmaeron  Oct 17, 11, 08:00    #635
Des Essientes:
What does that mean?

Don't you find the meaning quite evident? I don't see any equivocation in the sentence do you? You do know what authority is don't you(:

Des Essientes:
And what does that mean?
The decision this thread asks the poster to make is arbitrary because neither of the alternatives in the titular disjunction can be shown to be definitely right or wrong.


There were plenty of wrong decisions made in the past relating to many different spheres of life that were based on insufficient or bad information by those who had the authority of making the decisions. Politics and war, are two very good examples.
Well it all depends on one's perception, but not every person's perception is of equal worth.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
Posts: 2,318
Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Oct 17, 11, 08:07    #636
hague1cmaeron:
Don't you find the meaning quite evident?

No I don't. If you had said "In life authority is everything" then that would've been an understandable assertion but you wrote:
hague1cmaeron:
I see, well as in most things in life authority is everything.
hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
Posts: 1,652
Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 08:27    #637
Des Essientes:
No I don't. If you had said "In life authority is everything" then that would've been an understandable assertion but you wrote:

Well it's semantics really, you can interpret it that way. I was specifically referring to the said author's analysis, and pointing out that as with most things in life, an academic authority's evaluation is just as equally valid in the sphere of academia, as it is in other areas of life concerning authority.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
Posts: 2,318
Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Oct 17, 11, 08:31    #638
hague1cmaeron:
There were plenty of wrong decisions made in the past relating to many different spheres of life that were based on insufficient or bad information by those who had the authority of making the decisions. Politics and war, are two very good examples.
Well it all depends on one's perception, but not every person's perception is of equal worth.

This thread is not about politics or war. This thread is about choosing one of two words to describe Poland's position in Europe. Either Eastern or Central. Niether of these alternatives can be shown to be wrong and thus one's choice is arbitrary. One's choice does not come down to "one's perception" because everyone, that is not hallucinating, sees Poland in the same location on the map as everyone else. This thread is about an arbitrary choice between two adjectives.
hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
Posts: 1,652
Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 10:01    #639
Des Essientes:
One's choice does not come down to "one's perception"

Looking at this from a strictly geographical point of view you could be right, but quite obviously this thread is not all about geography, therefore perception comes into it.
NatasaThreads: 7
Posts: 2,607
Joined: Jun 6, 10  Pictures: 2  Gold Member MEMBER ♀ 		Edited by: Natasa  Oct 17, 11, 10:12    #640
Having no social consensus on the topic is an argument pro arbitrary, personal preference type of 'right' choice to describe Poland.

I still find this discussion humiliating for Poles, they are forced to prove that they are good enough to be the West, or not bad enough to be the East, terms being defined by the West with all positive and negative meanings attached to the concepts of West and East.

What's the point? :)

stop the earth i want to get off
hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
Posts: 1,652
Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 10:54    #641
Natasa:
they are forced to prove that they are good enough to be the West

Well that is quite obviously the agenda of some, especially those with the least amount of knowledge and quite content to stay that way. After all that is not their primary purpose for posting on here.
southernThreads: 116
Posts: 10,955
Joined: May 17, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 11:12    #642
As Stalin once said Poland has to move to the West.
NatasaThreads: 7
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Joined: Jun 6, 10  Pictures: 2  Gold Member MEMBER ♀ 		Edited by: Natasa  Oct 17, 11, 11:52    #643
Didn't good Germans say that it has to move to the East?

I have deepest admiration for Poles being able to survive that go West :), go East game. Don't get caught again Poles, be wise. I sound like Crow now :))

stop the earth i want to get off
southernThreads: 116
Posts: 10,955
Joined: May 17, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 14:11    #644
Poland always moves.When it enters south we will taste the true vodka.
Blue IzzieThreads: 1
Posts: 2
Joined: Oct 17, 11 ♀ 		 Oct 17, 11, 18:14    #645
Merged: Do Polish people think of themselves as Eastern European or Central European?

I work with a Polish man, and when we were talking today, I said he was Eastern European. He corrected me, saying he was "Not Eastern European, but Central European".
This really surprised me, as I've never heard of Poland or Polish people being referred to as Central European before.

So, do Polish people generally think of themselves as Central European? Or is it just this one guy?
lowfunk99Threads: 18
Posts: 435
Joined: Jan 7, 08 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 20:10    #646
After going to the Ukraine this weekend I would say it's Central Europe.
NatasaThreads: 7
Posts: 2,607
Joined: Jun 6, 10  Pictures: 2  Gold Member MEMBER ♀ 		 Oct 17, 11, 21:01    #647
And after visiting Belarus it would be West ;)

stop the earth i want to get off
Sidliste_ChodovThreads: 2
Posts: 683
Joined: Jul 27, 11 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 21:43    #648
Interesting to read that everyone on here has decided that Poles are definitely "eastern Europeans"... except for Poles themselves. So we're allowed to self-identify any more? It's a human right to be able to do so, so **** what you all think.

Don't insult Indians by calling them "Pakis", and don't insult Poles by calling us "east Europeans", we do NOT like being associated with invading Soviet scum. Capisce?
FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12
Posts: 1,999
Joined: Nov 3, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: FUZZYWICKETS  Oct 17, 11, 22:04    #649
half the old poles preferred communism anyhow, down with capitalism, etc., so i guess it's all in who you ask.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 22:06    #650
Nobody has raised the issue of CET, Central European Time. Poland goes under that. Any comments?
saschaThreads: 13
Posts: 3,855
Joined: Jun 10, 10  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 22:08    #651
Seanus:
Central European Time. Poland goes under that


yeah, when u go to bialystok f.e. its a strange feeling that u r still in cet zone. ;)
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Oct 17, 11, 22:09    #652
After too much Żubrówka from there, time zones go out of the window ;)
hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
Posts: 1,652
Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂ 		 Oct 18, 11, 01:56    #653
Blue Izzie:
So, do Polish people generally think of themselves as Central European? Or is it just this one guy?

Read the whole thread, instead of asking the same question over and over again.
retroDog  Oct 21, 11, 11:11    #654
hahahaha
if Poland is "Eastern Europe" then where is "Central Europe"???
Germany, Austria ???
I think Germans are delighted of their exlusion from Western Europe
And what it makes of countries East of Poland? Far East? Asian? Barbaric?
saschaThreads: 13
Posts: 3,855
Joined: Jun 10, 10  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Oct 21, 11, 11:37    #655
retroDog:
I think Germans are delighted of their exlusion from Western Europe


yes, i am happy. finally something groundbraking new. germany belongs to middle-east europe. :)

poland therefore to east. ;)
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,441
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		Edited by: PennBoy  Jan 16, 12, 16:13    #656
In a Cold War geopolitical sense it could have been called East, since there was and East and West. But in geographical it is clearly central European, even some parts of western Ukraine and Romania are also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_European
Peter Cracow  Jan 21, 12, 02:28    #657
I've red some posts and I'm very sad.
Calling Poland "Eastern Europe country" originates from 50' mostly when Russians established their power over this part of Europe for years and World understood it. East-West division brought beautiful simplicity - thinking was not necessary. Nobody need to remember that in the far history Poland was called a "northern country" and during partitioning its bigest parts belonged to German and Austro-Hungarian Empires called "Mitteuropa" (Central Europe).
And what now? Russians were kicked out a long time ago but the term is still in use. Occupation lasted 45 years and finished more than 22 years ago! It is really hard to believe that people (in old Europe) could be such, let's say, not informed. We have a lost generation there! That's why I'm sad.
"Eastern" is not an "offend" or "dislike" term too. Just false in case of Poland. But even living in the western part of Europe:
You can glimpse an eye at the map.
You can read Huntington.
You can come here and see.
You can go on the real East and compare.
You can read something about Cyrillic and Orthodoxy.
You can try to understand the differences between European and Byzantine style of live at last.
You can do much more if you want.
My acquaintances or business partners form Europe an USA I host sometimes in Cracow always say "WOW! I didn't know. It's quie different than I thought before..." They face to difficult homework to confront their imaginations and fixations with the reality. Yes, travelling is the best teacher in contrary to talking nonsense in the Internet.
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Jan 21, 12, 08:30    #658
Peter Cracow:
Calling Poland "Eastern Europe country" originates from 50' mostly when Russians established their power over this part of Europe for years and World understood it. East-West division brought beautiful simplicity - thinking was not necessary.

Your post makes a lot of sense, and Krakow (and perhaps Wroclaw are certainly Mitteleuropa. But, from a British point of view, most of the Poles who stayed on after the war came from the Eastern Territories, Grodno etc. which are certainly Eastern. Even Warsaw is in many ways more Eastern then Central.

There was also the tendency which you mention to identify Poland through Geopolitics, and it was easy to see anything east of Friedrichstrasse as Eastern Europe.

Nevertheless, as more and more people from 'the West' discover Poland, they will see that it has a distinct culture and the definition of Central Europe will subtly change.
jasondmzkThreads: 31
Posts: 503
Joined: Jun 1, 11  Pictures: 3 ♂ 		 Jan 21, 12, 08:36    #659
This subject is covered extensively in Norman Davie's forward to the book, "Microcosm: Portrait of a Central American City". It's well worth reading.
samsungkoreaThreads: 1
Posts: 2
Joined: Feb 8, 12 ♀ 		Edited by: samsungkorea  Feb 10, 12, 01:56    #660
Merged: IsPoland geographically,culturally or economically considered as Eastern orCentral Europe?

i'm an Asian majoring in Eastern-Europe studies(specifically Czech) and Polish one is also in this category(is in the university of Eastern-Europe studies)
so i have always been thinking Poland automatically is more close to Eastern Europe culturally, economically and so on.
Poland also had a communist form of government like some other Eastern-Europe countries.
Also, the Polish-language belongs to the Slavic-language group along with Russian, Czech and Slovakian.


But i heard somewhere that Polish people in general don't like it when people say Poland is an Eastern-European country. and they like to rather be called as 'Central-Europe'
if this information is true, why is this like that???


i think the standards dividing Eastern and Central Europe is very vague so it actually doesn't really matter. What do you think...???(if it can be divided...)

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