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Poland: Her heroes and her traitors


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Wroclaw_666Threads: 3
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 Oct 27, 11, 00:00    #121
I don't want to argue with you, because many (if not all) your agruments are right but you are quoting selected sentences from my posts and comment, but don't see my general mind. There was few uprising after 1945, almost all of them was pacified by milicja or other communist military organisation. I wrote my opinion about one guy... please don't suggest to me that I glorify communism... it's really funny to me. But as I see I'm created by you as the lawyer of cummunism :) Like Jerzy Urban... what's your opinion about this man ? I would like to add that I like them, I'm still in minority ?:)

Maybe I'm not experienced by the communism, when this political system was gone, I was 12 years old, I saw the poverty in these times, empty shops etc.

gumishuThreads: 17
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Edited by: gumishu  Oct 27, 11, 00:03    #122
Wroclaw_666:
I would like to add that I like them, I'm still in minority ?


you like whom? Urban and Nie? well - de gustibus.. hehe - if you don't know what you like I will point it out for you - (if it is really Urban that you like) - it is cynicism - I wonder if you like Palikot too
Grzegorz_Threads: 81
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Edited by: Grzegorz_  Oct 27, 11, 00:05    #123
gumishu:
or maybe you think he was a double agent? or maybe you think he was a genuine defector but the information he fed the US was false because it was fed by some Soviet intelligence cells?


Maybe... I know that in case of secret services even many things regarding WW2 are still secrets...

Wroclaw_666:
Like Jerzy Urban... what's your opinion about this man ?


A pieace of trash, hopefully he will die soon.
pawianThreads: 90
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Edited by: pawian  Oct 27, 11, 00:13    #124
Grzegorz_:
First commies declared him a traitor and next free Poland under a very strong preassure declared him a hero... I will stay with my doubts.


Your idol, Korwin Mikke, has the same opinion on Kukliński. Funny! :):):):):):)
http://korwin-mikke.blog.onet.pl/1,DA2007-02-16,index.html

Do you ever disagree with the chairman on anything? :):):):)
Wroclaw_666Threads: 3
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 Oct 27, 11, 00:15    #125
Ironside:
What do you mean when you say that you are loyal to Poland?
To What or to whom you are loyal specifically?
Would a fact that Poland in times of Kuklinski's act wasn't interdependent country played no part in your loyalty?
I'm trying to understand your position and a little help from you would be appreciated.


The question was about my loyality... and my answer was to this question directly, doesn't have any relation with Kuklinski, that's for a start.

If you want to know more things about my loyality or patriotism, I will answer for your questions with a pleasure:

Ironside:
What do you mean when you say that you are loyal to Poland?


I live here, want to stay here and want to build good Poland.

Ironside:
To What or to whom you are loyal specifically?


I'm not loyal with any specified person, if you expect me to specify any person, I won't, because I'm independent in my thoughts. I'm loyal with this country, I pay taxes, respect this country law.

Ironside:
Would a fact that Poland in times of Kuklinski's act wasn't interdependent country played no part in your loyalty?


My loyality to Poland has no connections with communism, Kuklinski, Jaruzelski, Rakowski, Kaczynski, Gorbaczow and many other persons.

Ironside:
I'm trying to understand your position and a little help from you would be appreciated.


I hope that I helped you to understand me.
pawianThreads: 90
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Edited by: pawian  Oct 27, 11, 00:24    #126
Wrocław, a nice piece of historical education for you. :):):):)

Wroclaw_666:
My loyality to Poland has no connections with communism, Kuklinski, Jaruzelski, Rakowski, Kaczynski, Gorbaczow and many other persons.


Good. Now look at what would have happened if WW3 had broken out. Poland and Germany would have been destroyed by nuclear counterstrikes. Kukliński knew about it and tried to prevent such a situation.

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Seven Days to the River Rhine was a top secret limited war game exercise developed in 1979 by the Warsaw Pact. It depicted the Soviet bloc’s vision of a seven-day atomic war between NATO and Warsaw Pact forces.
The plans predicted that NATO would launch a nuclear attack on the Vistula river valley in a first strike scenario, which would prevent Soviet bloc commanders from sending reinforcements to East Germany to prevent a NATO invasion of that country. The plan expected as many as two million Polish civilians would die in such a war, which would essentially destroy the country. With options limited, a Soviet counter-strike against West Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands and Denmark would take place in an effort to slow an invasion.


http://thegreatdayofannihilation.wordpress.com/tag/counter-strike/
Wroclaw_666Threads: 3
Posts: 69
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 Oct 27, 11, 00:40    #127
gumishu:
you like whom? Urban and Nie? well - de gustibus.. hehe - if you don't know what you like I will point it out for you - (if it is really Urban that you like) - it is cynicism - I wonder if you like Palikot too


I will tell you something... Polish politics is so boring that I think we need something funny to make our days more colorful.

Urban is outside the active politics, but his position is so strong that can bring bad emotions when his name is pronounced :) I know his black history and don't praise him because of the past, but this guy has so impartial approach for political facts (especialy current) that I respect him.

If you ask about Palikot, I think this guy is mendacious, his political party is a creation of PR (public relations), I must his presence in Sejm (his party presence) was an effect of a very good job before the elections. It's very colorful and controversial man, he is very visible amongst gray majority of Polish politicians. But he is in Sejm, and it's third power there. To be sure (I suppose) that many people voted for him because of the protestation against boring wars between PO and PiS, other words... the protestations against Polish current politics.

I saw in some other post the name of another interesting man in Polish politics, Janusz Korwin-Mikke :) I was on few his lectures, when he visited the student dorm where I used to live during studies. He is very radical person, but some of his theses are right. In general he is... funny and have no chances to be elected to Sejm.
pawianThreads: 90
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Edited by: pawian  Oct 27, 11, 00:43    #128
Wroclaw_666:
Urban is outside the active politics, ......but this guy has so impartial approach for political facts (especialy current) that I respect him.


Wroclaw_666:
If you ask about Palikot, I think this guy is mendacious, his political party is a creation of PR (public relations), I must his presence in Sejm (his party presence) was an effect of a very good job before the elections.


:):):):):)

Do you realise you are contradicting yourself now? :):):)

Urban is one of major political advisors to Palikot. :):):)

oops, Wrocław 666, are you going to get up at 7 am tomorrow in order to attend your high school? :):):):)
Congratulations on your English - very good for your real age. :):):):)
Wroclaw_666Threads: 3
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 Oct 27, 11, 00:48    #129
pawian:
Good. Now look at what would have happened if WW3 had broken out. Poland and Germany would have been destroyed by nuclear counterstrikes. Kukliński knew about it and tried to prevent such a situation.


Maybe yes, maybe not... I don't believe in any propaganda. If you want to discuss about Polish history, we can go for the beer and talk. I'm "an expert" in Festung Breslau :)
gumishuThreads: 17
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 Oct 27, 11, 00:48    #130
Wroclaw_666:
I must his presence in Sejm (his party presence) was an effect of a very good job before the elections


hehe good job - rather a big push from media - remember those who want to create a political movement in Poland and don't have a support of the TV's just won't make it - and if you think Palikot and his bunch are anti-establishment then think again
Wroclaw_666Threads: 3
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 Oct 27, 11, 00:53    #131
pawian:
:):):):):)

Do you realise you are contradicting yourself now? :):):)

Urban is one of major political advisors to Palikot. :):):)

oops, Wrocław 666, are you going to get up at 7 am tomorrow in order to attend your high school? :):):):)
Congratulations on your English - very good for your real age. :):):):)


Yes... it's funny... I'm still contradicting mysefl... hehe. Forum is for everyone, for people who want to discuss about politics and for those who want to force their arguments by an agressive methods. I respect it, of course. You are the next person today who wants to judge me :) 7AM is comming, probably time for us both...
pawianThreads: 90
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 Oct 27, 11, 01:00    #132
Wroclaw_666:
7AM is comming, probably time for us both...


Exactly! :):):)
I am turning in now! :):):)
Wroclaw_666Threads: 3
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 Oct 27, 11, 01:02    #133
gumishu:
hehe good job - rather a big push from media - remember those who want to create a political movement in Poland and don't have a support of the TV's just won't make it - and if you think Palikot and his bunch are anti-establishment then think again


I'm not a fan of Palikot, but I must say that he is the bigger winner of this election, isn't he ?

That's normal that Palikot didn't do it himself, that was a big work of media, it's true. But he was so controversial and visible that any TV stations want him to show. I don't care about his intentions, he will change nothing in Poland, but there will be more funny than before...
gumishuThreads: 17
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Edited by: gumishu  Oct 27, 11, 01:29    #134
Wroclaw_666:
That's normal that Palikot didn't do it himself, that was a big work of media, it's true. But he was so controversial and visible that any TV stations want him to show. I don't care about his intentions, he will change nothing in Poland, but there will be more funny than before...


i'm not into funniness in politics - well actually politicians could have a sense of humour but I'm not the fan of Mr Palikot's sense of humour

btw you were supposed to go to bed, pal - I don't need to get up early - you do - good night then
Wroclaw_666Threads: 3
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 Oct 27, 11, 01:37    #135
gumishu:
i'm not into funniness in politics - well actually politicians could have a sense of humour but I'm not the fan of Mr Palikot's sense of humour


Palikot needs to be funny, because he can't do anything constructive... look on his team... can they create anything serious ?:) Only chaos and muddle :) It's democracy... - the system where 2 lushes can vote down one University professor :) hehe
IronsideThreads: 59
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 Oct 27, 11, 10:58    #136
Wroclaw_666:
I'm not loyal with any specified person, if you expect me to specify any person, I won't, because I'm independent in my thoughts. I'm loyal with this country, I pay taxes, respect this country law.

You mean you are loyal to whomever is in charge in Poland.
Wroclaw_666:
I'm not loyal with any specified person, if you expect me to specify any person, I won't, because I'm independent in my thoughts. I'm loyal with this country, I pay taxes, respect this country law.

What then you are loyal to ?land, trees, landscape, people ?
loyal to the country is too general ...
Wroclaw_666:
My loyality to Poland has no connections with communism, Kuklinski, Jaruzelski, Rakowski, Kaczynski, Gorbaczow and many other persons.

To clarify: in the time of partitions to what or whom you would be loyal to ?
Wroclaw_666Threads: 3
Posts: 69
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 Oct 27, 11, 11:24    #137
Ironside:
You mean you are loyal to whomever is in charge in Poland.


No.

Ironside:
What then you are loyal to ?land, trees, landscape, people ?
loyal to the country is too general ...


To my nationality.

Ironside:
To clarify: in the time of partitions to what or whom you would be loyal to ?


To Poland.

Please ask for these questions also, I would like to know something about you.
IronsideThreads: 59
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 Oct 27, 11, 11:31    #138
Wroclaw_666:
To my nationality.

Whats that ?
What do you mean by - loyal to my nationality. Whats that mean ?
Wroclaw_666:
To Poland.

Poland didn't existed at the time.
So, my question still stand.
Wroclaw_666:
Please ask for these questions also, I would like to know something about you.


huh ? Ask away !
Wroclaw_666Threads: 3
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 Oct 27, 11, 12:31    #139
Ironside:
Whats that ?
What do you mean by - loyal to my nationality. Whats that mean ?


Loyal to other Poles and to Poland, for our roots, for our tradition, that's all.

Ironside:
Poland didn't existed at the time.
So, my question still stand.


I have never been in the situation when Poland didn't exist formally. Probably I would fight with occupants. You must know one thing... for Poles Poland will exists everytime, doesn't matter if some aggressor occupies Poland...

Ironside:
huh ? Ask away !


Ask for your questions which you asked me.
IronsideThreads: 59
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 Oct 27, 11, 12:47    #140
Wroclaw_666:

Loyal to other Poles and to Poland, for our roots, for our tradition, that's all.

you are giving flippant answers, your claims here and your answers do not add up.
You lack consistency, either you are a kid playing games on PF or you are pretending to be somebody else that you are, and I do mean moniker here.
no matter")
Wroclaw_666:
u must know one thing... for Poles Poland will exists everytime, doesn't matter if some aggressor occupies Poland...

What would you do in that case?Support collaborators in a government because their are Polish ?

Wroclaw_666:
Ask for your questions which you asked me.

I Don't understand what you are saying here.
If you want to ask me some questions - ask away !
Wroclaw_666Threads: 3
Posts: 69
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 Oct 27, 11, 13:03    #141
Ironside:
you are giving flippant answers, your claims here and your answers do not add up.
You lack consistency, either you are a kid playing games on PF or you are pretending to be somebody else that you are, and I do mean moniker here.
no matter")


That's your opinion. Maybe would be better if you write what do you expect from me...

Ironside:
What would you do in that case?Support collaborators in a government because their are Polish ?


Don't suggest the answer in your question, it's rude and aggressive. I won't ever colaborate with people which are against Poland...

Ironside:
If you want to ask me some questions - ask away !


in the time of partitions to what or whom you would be loyal to ?

Are you Polish ?
IronsideThreads: 59
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 Oct 27, 11, 13:30    #142
Wroclaw_666:
in the time of partitions to what or whom you would be loyal to ?

I don't know, too many unknowns.
Wroclaw_666:
Are you Polish ?

yep
Ozi DanThreads: 22
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 Nov 18, 11, 05:53    #143
Whenever I think of Polish heroes I think of the likes of Bear Cub, Nil and Novak. Their deeds, and particularly the silence under torture of the former 2, hold them high as paragons of virtue and selflessness. If I could have but 100th of the honour contained in the little finger of 1 of them I would be satisfied.

I think Davies described Bear Cub as a knight without peer or reproach, and that is true.
pawianThreads: 90
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Edited by: pawian  May 1, 12, 23:11    #144
When in Warsaw a few years ago, we went to the park to see the statue of general Sowiński and the redoubt he defended.

s

The remains of Wola entrenchment defended by general Sowiński.
s


General Sowiński, a heroic general with one leg who died while defending Warsaw against Russians during November Uprising in 1830.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Sowi%C5%84ski

Józef Sowiński (1777-–1831) was a Polish artillery general and one of the heroes of Poland's November 1830 Uprising.

Józef Longin Sowiński was born March 15, 1777 Warsaw, after graduating from the famous Corps of Cadets in Warsaw, he joined the Polish Army as a lieutenant during the Kościuszko Uprising (1794). After its suppression and the dismemberment of Poland by her neighbor states, Sowiński's regiment was drafted into the Prussian army. However, after the Duchy of Warsaw was proclaimed by Napoleon Bonaparte, Sowiński in 1811 defected back into Polish service. He fought in various battles of the Napoleonic wars. During Napoleon's invasion of Russia (1812) he lost a leg at the Battle of Mozhaysk. He was awarded the Virtuti Militari and Legion of Honor. After the Congress of Vienna he returned to Poland and served as commander of the Warsaw Arsenal of the Kingdom of Poland Army. In 1820 he became commandant of the Application School for officers.

After the outbreak of the November Uprising against Russia in 1830, Sowiński became artillery commander of the Warsaw garrison and head of the Government Commission of War (de facto Ministry of War). During the Russian assault on Warsaw on September 6, 1831, Sowiński personally commanded the heroic defense of the Polish capital's western approaches, in what is now its Wola district (he had 1,300 men versus 11 Russian battalions).
His death was immortalized by Polish poets, including Juliusz Słowacki in his Sowiński w okopach Woli (Sowiński in the Wola Trenches).


Sowinski in the Trenches of Wola
Juliusz Slowacki

In the old churchhouse of Wola
General Sowinski remained,
Old man with a wooden leg,
Defending himself with a sword;
All around him lie commanders
Of battalions with their soldiers,
Muskets scattered, broken cannons,
Everything is devastated!

The General will not surrender,
The old man defends himself
Leaning up against the altar
On the sacred linen white,
There he rests his weary elbow
Where they lay the holy missals
On the left side of the altar
Where the priest reads from the Gospel

Suddenly some soldiers enter,
Servants of the Russian Marshall
Paskiewicz, and beg him: "General,
Surrender now, for why should you
Die so miserably." On their knees
They plead, as with their own father,
"Hand us your sword now, General,
Or the Marshall himself will come."

"I'll not surrender to you, Sirs,"
The old man answered calmly,
"Nor to you nor to the Marshall
Will I give my sword away,
Though the Czar himself demand it
Though I'm old, I'll not surrender,
But with sword I'll fight the battle
While my heart yet beats within me.

Even were there not so much as
One last Pole upon this planet,
I will be compelled to perish
For the good of my dear country,
And the fathers who begot me
I must perish in the trenches,
Sword in hand 'til death still fighting
'Gainst . . . the enemies of Poland . . .
That ... this city might remember
And our little children, too
Who today are in their cradles
As the bombs play in their ears.
I will fight that these, our children
When they're grown, may well remember
That this day upon the ramparts
Died a General -- with leg of wood. When I walked about the city,
The youth would often laugh at me
For walking on a stick of wood,
And stumbling, old man, constantly.
Let them now pronounce the verdict,
Does this wooden leg well serve me,
Will it direct me straight to God,
And will it take me there quickly?

My adjutants, stupid dandies,
On your healthy legs so agile,
When the battle cry was sounded
Made good use of such good legs,
Whereas I upon this altar
Lean and rest, a crippled man,
I can't go in search of death,
But it will come in search of me.

Do not kneel thus, Sirs, before me,
I am not a holy man.
But I am a Pole of honor
Struggling to defend ... my life ...
I forsooth am not a martyr,
But I'll hold on 'til the end
And whom I can I'll slaughter,
I'll give blood ... but not my sword."

Thus spoke General Sowinski,
Old man with a wooden leg . . .
Then with flashing sword the General,
Held the bayonets at bay;
'Til one of the older soldiers
Stabbed him mortally in the breast...
Leaning lifeless 'gainst the altar
Standing on his leg ... of wood...

-translated by Walter Whipple
http://www.mission.net/poland/warsaw/literature/poems/sowinski.htm

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Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori. I envy general Sowiński his beautiful death.
Ozi DanThreads: 22
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 May 3, 12, 01:38    #145
I've just been reading about Prince Roman Sanguszko, the Prince who walked to his exile to Siberia in the 19th Century. I think he's an heroic figure.


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