Poland, Lacking External Enemies, Turns on Itself

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Edited by: skysoulmate Nov 28, 10, 01:18 #1

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/world/europe/28poland.html?hp

By MICHAEL SLACKMAN
Published: November 27, 2010

WARSAW — It was 9:30 at night, under a chilly, steady rain. The Presidential Palace glowed brightly in the background as a cluster of men and women huddled under umbrellas, saying prayers, holding small wooden crosses against their bodies, facing a large picture of Jesus Christ on the cross and a lighted statue of the Virgin Mary....

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Nov 28, 10, 01:24 #2
Holy bejeebus, you've just summed up the entire program in the title!

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Nov 28, 10, 02:02 #3
How can Germany help? ;)

skysoulmateThreads: 41 Posts: 3,039 Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂	Edited by: skysoulmate Nov 28, 10, 02:34 #4
convex: Holy bejeebus, you've just summed up the entire program in the title! Well, it wasn't me, I merely used the title of the article. : )

dtaylor5632Threads: 49 Posts: 4,459 Joined: May 2, 09 ♂	Nov 28, 10, 02:39 #5
Bratwurst Boy: How can Germany help? Don't do what you did with the Irish recently.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Nov 28, 10, 02:41 #6
dtaylor5632: Don't do what you did with the Irish recently. The Irish screwed themselves...disagree? Start a topic about it.

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Nov 28, 10, 02:49 #7

convex:

The Irish screwed themselves...disagree? Start a topic about it.

Yes they did, capital bank didn't exactly help either. Joining the Euro meant that Ireland could borrow at rates which their economy could easily afford. Now its faced with 100,000 people leaving every year. A sad state of affairs. I wont start a thread about it due to the fact it will probably become bigoted and end up in useless arguments. Though it is a lesson for Poland to learn, whether to join the Euro and have that kind of potential behind it, or to continue what it is doing now.

Pinching PeteThreads: 1 Posts: 1,111 Joined: Feb 23, 08 ♂	Nov 28, 10, 02:52 #8
dtaylor5632: Now its faced with 100,000 people leaving every year. Jeez Louise ... there isn't but 7 million there as it is, right? Yeah, no more Celtic Tiger, man. Strange how it got p.ssed away so fast. It will be studied for years probably.

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,441 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Nov 28, 10, 02:58 #9
skysoulmate: Poland, Lacking External Enemies, Turns on Itself skysoulmate: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/world/europe/28poland.html?hp Don't listen to the New York Times is a Jewish paper only talking bs about Poland

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Nov 28, 10, 03:06 #10

dtaylor5632:

Though it is a lesson for Poland to learn, whether to join the Euro and have that kind of potential behind it, or to continue what it is doing now.

Polish banks are much more disciplined in their lending than Irish banks. The private and commercial banking sector aren't comparable.

PennBoy:

Don't listen to the New York Times is a Jewish paper only talking bs about Poland

Sure. The topic makes perfect sense when you look at political debate within the country. It's self defeating. Evil jews pointing out politics which make Poland weaker!

dtaylor5632Threads: 49 Posts: 4,459 Joined: May 2, 09 ♂	Nov 28, 10, 03:32 #11
convex: Polish banks are much more disciplined in their lending than Irish banks. The private and commercial banking sector aren't comparable. For now yes, but how long before banks will look to make some quick bucks than plan for future stability.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Nov 28, 10, 03:33 #12
dtaylor5632: For now yes, but how long before banks will look to make some quick bucks than plan for future stability. That's a decision left for the Sejm. They are legally held back from risky investments :)

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Nov 28, 10, 04:28 #13

PennBoy:

Don't listen to the New York Times is a Jewish paper only talking bs about Poland

Yes take with a grain of salt what the Leftist-Jewish New York Times Newspaper says about Poland. It is no friend of Poland and that's putting it mildly. It will take grains of truth and then twist it to make Poland look as bad as possible.

This is the same Anti-Polish Idiot newspaper that has referred to Nazi German deaths camps put in Poland as "Polish Death Camps", dozens of times. Even after it got many complaints from Polish groups about this term.

A JThreads: 19 Posts: 4,639 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Nov 28, 10, 08:00 #14
The political leadership is at war with itself. Personal attacks and insults are flying. Politicians have traded accusations of drug abuse, mental illness, collaborating with the Nazis and being agents of Moscow. Hmm.. Do you think they get their inspiration from PF? xD

hague1cmaeronThreads: 21 Posts: 1,652 Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂	Edited by: hague1cmaeron Nov 28, 10, 08:48 #15
Well, like with most papers hyperbole always takes center stage. Most people in Poland choose not to define themselves by politicians, and go about their lives as usual. ********* happens as far as most of them are concerned.

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Nov 28, 10, 09:27 #16

MediaWatch:

...take with a grain of salt what the Leftist-Jewish New York Times Newspaper says about Poland.

and Kwaśniewski and rabbi and... who knows who else.

The former polish president, Aleksander Kwasniewski said the best way to describe Poland today was with a short story: “A group of children say to a rabbi, ‘Please tell us in a few words what the situation is,’ ” and the rabbi answers, ‘Good.’

“The children say, ‘Perhaps you can use a few more words, and the rabbi responds, ‘Not good.’ ”

StuThreads: 27 Posts: 1,109 Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂	Nov 28, 10, 10:16 #17
@MediaWatch and PennBoy ... did you actually take the time to read the article? I can't see anything in the article that is trying to place Poland in a bad light. Pretty much all sides of the argument are given a voice, and no conclusions are drawn. It's just an informative article with arguments and counter-arguments of all sides.

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Nov 28, 10, 10:41 #18

Stu:

@MediaWatch and PennBoy ... did you actually take the time to read the article? I can't see anything in the article that is trying to place Poland in a bad light. Pretty much all sides of the argument are given a voice, and no conclusions are drawn. It's just an informative article with arguments and counter-arguments of all sides.

Stu

Look at the title. "Poland, Lacking External Enemies, Turns on Itself". That's a ridiculous title and its the insolent opinion of the New York Times Anti-Polish Leftists.

There will be many people who won't read the whole article and just skim through it and just remember the silly title.

The article could easily been titled something like "Despite good economic times, Poland is a divided nation". I think that would have been a fair title since most of the article was about how Poland has a good economy while it has its divisions.

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Edited by: Stu Nov 28, 10, 11:01 #19

I think you are overreacting, MediaWatch. You are just dismissing an article because of the title (and because of in what newspaper it was published) and not because of the content.

I could say I don't agree with the article, because it states that Poland "navigated the treacherous transition from Communism better than most of the post-Soviet satellite nations". What about the Czech Republic? In my opinion they did it better and quicker. And don't start accusing me of being anti-Polish, because I am not.

If people don't want to read the article based only on the title, then it says a lot about these people. Not about the article.

I think it is a well-balanced article where all sides get their say.

MaybeThreads: 7 Posts: 335 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Nov 28, 10, 11:13 #20
Stu: I think it is a well-balanced article where all sides get their say. I second that. Poland A. Poland B. Poland Z.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Nov 28, 10, 12:42 #21
dtaylor5632: Don't do what you did with the Irish recently. Well...you got millions of money before, you screwed up everything and you will get help now to not let you drown...the celtic tiger became a weak, little meowing kitty...and none of it is the Germans fault, sorry! If we would had taken you over you would still be a celtic tiger!

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Nov 28, 10, 13:12 #22
BB, Did you save your Deutsche Marks?

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Edited by: welshguyinpola Nov 28, 10, 13:21 #23

MediaWatch:

Yes take with a grain of salt what the Leftist-Jewish New York Times Newspaper says about Poland. It is no friend of Poland and that's putting it mildly. It will take grains of truth and then twist it to make Poland look as bad as possible.

This is a typical response from a Pole, instead of trying to change the situation you argue about who is to blame for calling you names. People in this country need to grow up.

Just looked at ur profile, u are an Amrican who speaks a lil Polish, another plastic pole i guess

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Edited by: Babinich Nov 28, 10, 13:24 #24

Bratwurst Boy:

If we would had taken you over you would still be a celtic tiger!

I'd be wary if I were you.

Germany and France, the world's 4th and 5th largest economies, have the greatest exposure to Portuguese and Spanish debt.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/81609 99/EU-rescue-costs-start-to-threaten-Germany-itself.html

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2010/11/systemic-coupling-round-up.html

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Nov 28, 10, 13:54 #25

They are already tampering with the retirement system and fiddling with pensions. I know this from first-hand, reliable sources. This is not solely confined to Poland either. As for taxes, well, we know that they are hiking them up. I remember the hoo-haa about VAT back in 1980's Britain. The Tories masked this very well by keeping income tax lower but VAT is more of a prominent issue here in Poland.

As for Poland lacking external enemies, it could be said that it lacks a meaningful enemy in an ideological sense (if any, of course). The Taliban are hardly the most likely choice given their distance and lack of trampling on Polish interests. Poland was just dragged into that one but wouldn't have initiated it of their own volition. The time has come for circumspection and Smoleńsk has served to make Poles more reflective on their relationship with Russia.

PennBoy, it might actually be a good thing that the paper is written by Jews. Zionists? No. Jews have had a meaningful connection to Russia and Poland for a long time. Yes, America had The Cold War with Russia but that didn't last nearly as long as Polish/Russian feuds. That goes well back. Also, proximity was another distinguishing factor.

Poles like to bicker but their spirit is one of unity. That can be strongly felt when you get to the heart of Polishness.

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Edited by: delphiandomine Nov 28, 10, 14:42 #26

MediaWatch:

Look at the title. "Poland, Lacking External Enemies, Turns on Itself". That's a ridiculous title and its the insolent opinion of the New York Times Anti-Polish Leftists.

Did you actually read it? It's a very fair article, it shows clearly how Poland is split into two camps and actually, you could learn a lot from reading it. It's one of the very few American articles that actually describes Poland properly.

It even gives quite prominent attention to the potential economic timebomb waiting to go off if Poland doesn't enact reforms within 2-3 years. That's something that has been mostly ignored in Poland - mainly because the opposition doesn't understand it and PO need to keep it quiet before launching the reforms needed.

Shame you choose to believe hysterical anti-Polish theories rather than learning about what's actually happening here - and you call yourself a patriot?

So - MediaWatch - do you believe that there isn't a hard political split in Poland, similar to the USA?

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 28, 10, 14:53 #27

Babinich:

Did you save your Deutsche Marks?

Nope....
The Euro is good for the german economy, for our export industry, it is there to stay!
Problem is we had a monetary union BEFORE an economical union...now the chicken
come home to roost!

I predict a breaking up into two zones....into those who agree with the german model and are ready to build an economical union and those who don't.

Babinich:

I'd be wary if I were you.

A bit more german economical management would had helped to not get broke...
But they preferred to screw it up themselves!

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Nov 28, 10, 14:56 #28

Delph is right, MW. Warning of complacence may be the best message to send out at this time. Look at the Celtic Tiger's demise. SeanBM put it well that folk got caught up in the boom and lost their sense of long-term realism. There are forces beyond our control so we need nest eggs for a rainy day. Many fell into the credit trap and I really believe many Poles will face the heat sooner rather than later.

Wealth retention and consolidation is sth that has to be considered. The economy may not sustain itself due to numerous factors and committees need to be set up to address all the relevant issues. No need for enemies, just common understanding.

Marynka11Threads: 8 Posts: 1,447 Joined: Nov 3, 10 ♀	Nov 28, 10, 15:52 #29
Does actually someone understand why Poland is facing black outs?

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Edited by: convex Nov 28, 10, 16:09 #30
Marynka11: Does actually someone understand why Poland is facing black outs? Because there hasn't been any investment in power generation for a long time, and demand will outstrip capacity. There won't be black outs, the consumers will just be milked even worse than they are now, and the power generating companies will go to the government for a handout.

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