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SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Sep 23, 11, 15:06 #121
We did actually try to infiltrate the HRE with our union with Saxony, but that did not play of really well due to the circumstances. Quite the opposite David, it was the first time Germany ever truly influenced Poland and Saxon rule while it had its highlights was by and large disastrous for Poland.

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Sep 23, 11, 17:25 #122

Quite the opposite David, it was the first time Germany ever truly influenced Poland and Saxon rule while it had its highlights was by and large disastrous for Poland.

Yea but under other circumstances maybe Poland would have had inlfluenced HRE. The first Wetting King in Poland would have been able to turn Poland into a strong centralised state if it werent for the Polish Golden freedom that turned the king into a puppet in the hands of the Szlachta.

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Sep 23, 11, 17:28 #123

Barbarossa for example had plenty, there were many who had, dont try to discuss history with me when you havent picked up a book on your life.

Interesting that you can't answer without insults...
The emperors of the 12th century can't be compared with emperors of the 16th century since they lost power with every new election. This "Wahlkapitulation" was even institutionalized in the 15th or 16th century. Looks like I read some books.

IF Poland entered the HRE as an elector there wouldnt be Prussia to speak off, expading westwards meant eventuall annexation of Brandenburg and Teutonic States.

Poland couldn't enter the HRE "as an elector" since, even with a Polish emperor, Poland would still have been an foreign aggressor. The election of a foreign candidate wouldn't have led to a personal union of the HRE with the country of the foreign candidate. Emperors moreover could get voted out of power if they acted against the empire.

The grand total mobilisation capacity of HRE was around 120.000 men so you're inflating it, also no the HRE did not have an "imperial army" the imperial army was the army of the state from which the emperor hailed which is why it was for a long time Austria, the most powerfull of the german states.
Pick up a book sometimes it'll stop you from humiliating yourself again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Army_of_the_Holy_Roman_Empire
Maybe you simply shouldn't write about history, lol

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Sep 23, 11, 18:57 #124

The emperors of the 12th century can't be compared with emperors of the 16th century since they lost power with every new election. This "Wahlkapitulation" was even institutionalized in the 15th or 16th century. Looks like I read some books.

So you mean Austrian Emperors had no power at all being the most powerfull german state?:)))

Poland couldn't enter the HRE "as an elector"

But it could enter via Duchy of Courland, Duchy of Brandenburg, Lithuanian Radziwil Branch who were already electors, and it did several times, back to the books for you.

Emperors moreover could get voted out of power if they acted against the empire.

I'd love to see german states vote out an Emperor who had the polish army and the polish coffers behind him.

I'm sorry i dont use wiki nor do i use it as a source

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Sep 24, 11, 11:49 #125

The first Wetting King in Poland would have been able to turn Poland into a strong centralised state if it werent for the Polish Golden freedom that turned the king into a puppet in the hands of the Szlachta.

The Wettins, all of them were never interested in Poland as anything more than a revenue source, it was not the so called "Golden Freedom" as the Wettins had 30.000 strong Saxon army and 40.000 strong Polish army behind them, for those times this was a very real fighting force with which any king could p*ss on nobilitys opinions.

Wettins even tried to partition Poland so no the german kings never really wanted to do much.

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Sep 24, 11, 12:40 #126

The Wettins, all of them were never interested in Poland

They were at the begining. But after spending some years in the Sejm i guess they got pretty mad and just thought screw this and lets move on to plan B...

and 40.000 strong Polish army behind them

Haha the Poles did not give a damn about the Saxon king and his army. They did not even help them in the war with Charles the Swedish king...

Wettins even tried to partition Poland so no the german kings never really wanted to do much.

When?

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	Sep 24, 11, 12:47 #127
Haha the Poles did not give a damn about the Saxon king and his army. They did not even help them in the war with Charles the Swedish king... yes this is true - but well - Poland and Polish people never wanted this war - it was king August's plot that drew Poland into the war (raid on Riga by Saxon troops from Polish territory)

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Sep 24, 11, 13:11 #128

So you mean Austrian Emperors had no power at all being the most powerfull german state?:)))

This is a completely different matter. Sorry to say this, but you don't understand the character of the HRE. The Habsburgs as Austrian dukes were powerful, the Habsburgs as emperors were not, since the power of the emperor was gradually reduced, while the states became more powerful.

But it could enter via Duchy of Courland, Duchy of Brandenburg, Lithuanian Radziwil Branch who were already electors, and it did several times, back to the books for you.

Do you actually know what "elector" means when it comes to the HRE?

I'd love to see german states vote out an Emperor who had the polish army and the polish coffers behind him.

They also voted out the most powerful king of the HRE, so...

I'm sorry i dont use wiki nor do i use it as a source

You can use the books used there...

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Edited by: Sokrates Sep 24, 11, 16:10 #129

Sorry to say this, but you don't understand the character of the HRE.

The character of the HRE was changing throught the ages, you admitted as much yourself so i understand the situation very well.

the Habsburgs as emperors were not

Says you, what history says is that Austria as the seat of HRE effectively stopped any german state apart from Brandenburg from attacking Poland during the Deluge, thats a pretty good indication that untill XVIII century Austria was rocking the game completely.

since the power of the emperor was gradually reduced, while the states became more powerful.

Legally maybe, the reality was if you had the most money and the biggest army that made you lord of the ring as Emperor thus Habsburgs had all the leverage in the world and a bit more.

Do you actually know what "elector" means when it comes to the HRE?

Yes but you're talking about the legal team of the Collegium, i'm talking about who did the choosing actually, reality as opposed to legality.

They also voted out the most powerful king of the HRE, so...

The most powerfull king of HRE was at the time incomparably less powerfull than the Polish king, in XV alone for example Poland had a GDP larger than Germany and Lithuania combined, for over 100 years Poland was in a position to literally buy and sell any seat of power in the HRE at leisure.

You can use the books used there...

What for? I spoken of the mobilisation potential of the HRE and you gave me what amounts to the federal army, those are two completely different subjects and its not my fault you have comprehension issues.

Haha the Poles did not give a damn about the Saxon king and his army. They did not even help them in the war with Charles the Swedish king...

They gave quite a bit of damn David, if you're referring to the War of Polish Succession thats a different story alltogether.

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