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Poland obliged to make war reparations to Austria and Germany after WWI. Why?


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hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
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Edited by: hague1cmaeron  Jan 24, 11, 05:43    #1
According to Adam Zamoyski in his book The Polish Way, page 348, Poland was obliged to pay war reparations to Austria and Germany.

Zamoyski:

“ The only solution was massive industrialisation, but this was made no easier by the fact
that in 1918 the retreating German Army had carried out a gigantic operation quaintly termed ‘the de-industrialisation of Poland; which left no factory, railway-station or bridge standing and no piece of machinery in place. The state came into being with vast debts to the allies (for equipping and arming the Blue Army and supplying armaments between 1918 and 1920), and the unbelievable obligation of making war-reparations to Austria and Germany.”

Does anybody know why?

Interestingly he also mentions that “In 1930 a Ukrainian nationalist organisation funded from Germany begun a campaign of terrorism and sabotage.” p344 again I wasn’t aware that they got their money from Germany, was anybody else?

VarsovianThreads: 91
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 Jan 24, 11, 09:10    #2
Dunno, and don't have time to find out myself - does anyone out there know?
hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
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Edited by: hague1cmaeron  Jan 24, 11, 10:06    #3
I tried looking and thus far I haven't been successful, I wonder if anyone else has better knowledge of the topic. My first reaction was, How on earth can that have been possible?
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 24, 11, 11:50    #4
Germany for sure did not get any reparations from anybody after WWI...WE PAID THEM!
Reparations is for losers!
Germany paid the last reparation for WW1 this year (2010).
Israel demands another 500 MIL for WWII (the East-German part they didn't get till now)...how is that?

"operation de-industrialisation" my arse! What crap! 1918 the german army was self-destructing and infighting.
(Not to mention that there was no Poland in 1918....I very much doubt the german army was on a destruction-spree in Germany).
The Treaty of Versaille decided that in 1919.

This guy is a plain liar...
BabinichThreads: 1
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Edited by: Babinich  Jan 24, 11, 11:59    #5
Bratwurst Boy:
1918 the german army was self-destructing and infighting.


But marched back home, a home never breached by the enemy, with the belief that their defeat was a defeat sealed by back room political dealings.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 24, 11, 12:00    #6
Babinich:
But marched back home, a home never breached by the enemy, with the belief that their defeat was a defeat constructed by back room politics.


That's what I meant with infighting....the fight between the nationalists and the communists didn't stop in the army...quite the contrary.
The old order broke down.

There wasn't even an Austria yet but still the Austro-Hungarian empire breaking down.

in 1918 the war was over, mainly happened in the West anyhow....

This author is a liar!
AdamKadmonThreads: 38
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Edited by: AdamKadmon  Jan 24, 11, 12:20    #7
Bratwurst Boy:
This guy is a plain liar...


No, he is not. The Polish folk proverb says:
Czyj chleb jesz tego piosenkę ¶piewasz.
VarsovianThreads: 91
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 Jan 24, 11, 12:23    #8
Hey - before you lot go tribal ... can we get back to the original post?
AdamKadmonThreads: 38
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Edited by: AdamKadmon  Jan 24, 11, 12:50    #9
Adam Zamoyski is a British historian not Polish. So he is objective.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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 Jan 24, 11, 12:52    #10
AdamKadmon:
Adam Zamoyski a British historian not Polish. So he is objective.


Well...he should get his facts straight.

What did he bring to support this idea? Any documents? Or just a plain opinion like on a talk board?
AdamKadmonThreads: 38
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 Jan 24, 11, 13:01    #11
Bratwurst Boy:
Any documents?


You will find them in the book.
VarsovianThreads: 91
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 Jan 24, 11, 13:06    #12
I don't need a link - just give some sort of clue as where to back up the statement at issue. As for he's British and therefore impartial ... erm, not good enough for me!
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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 Jan 24, 11, 13:09    #13
AdamKadmon:

You will find them in the book.



Highly improbably...
enkiduThreads: 18
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 Jan 24, 11, 14:20    #14
I am Polish born and educated in Poland and I have never heard about any reparations paid to Germany and/or Austria by Poland. Quick internet research also shows no results.

As for de-industrialisation. My home town is in the old Prussian territory. I assure you that the German-built bridges, factories, trains stations etc are still in place.
englishwarsawThreads: -
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 Jan 24, 11, 15:07    #15
I think it is just a misreading of Zamoyski. Poland paid reparations not to Austria and Germany, but to third countries for the land they had taken over from Austria and Germany. Since the reparations were considered to be a collective punishment for the Austrian and German population, it was only logical that part of the population should not escape punishment just because their land had been re-allocated to a new country. Such an arrangement would normally see reparation payments more than counter-balanced by reparation receipts.
DaisyThreads: 16
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 Jan 24, 11, 18:24    #16
AdamKadmon:
Adam Zamoyski is a British historian not Polish

And which part of Britain does the name Zamoyski come from, it's definitely not English and it doesn't sound very Welsh or Scots either. he may have been born in Britain and have a British passport, but I doubt he's neutral on the subject
TrevekThreads: 33
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Edited by: Trevek  Jan 24, 11, 18:27    #17
Daisy:
he may have been born in Britain


He was born in New York and brought up in Britain and Switzerland. Parents left Poland in 1939.

http://www.adamzamoyski.com/about.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Zamoyski
hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
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Edited by: hague1cmaeron  Jan 24, 11, 16:51    #18
englishwarsaw:
but to third countries for the land they had taken over from Austria and Germany.


could you elaborate a bit further? Do you mean that Poland had to pay for the Germans found on Polish territory? I can't seem to find any information on this besides Zamoyski. That is why I found his claim so surprising.
hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
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 Jan 25, 11, 11:19    #19
Bratwurst Boy:
"operation de-industrialisation" my arse! What crap! 1918 the german army was self-destructing and infighting.
(Not to mention that there was no Poland in 1918....I very much doubt the german army was on a destruction-spree in Germany).
The Treaty of Versaille decided that in 1919.


Yes but they had quite a good idea that it would come about by the end, and whilst I think that Zamoyski exaggerates, there in no doubt that it did happen, The Russians used a similar tactic. often the Russians and Germans used such tactics to deny each other vital resources.
TeffleThreads: 28
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 Jan 25, 11, 11:26    #20
Daisy:
And which part of Britain does the name Zamoyski come from, it's definitely not English and it doesn't sound very Welsh or Scots either. he may have been born in Britain and have a British passport, but I doubt he's neutral on the subject


Doesn't mean anything. Many people in Britain have "foreign" names.

The comedian Ricky Gervais for example hates the French.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 25, 11, 11:30    #21
hague1cmaeron:
Yes but they had quite a good idea that it would come about by the end,...


Actually no, they hadn't.

Germany agreed to the negotiations because of the ongoing blockade by the Brits and French but mainly because of the "Wilson's 14 points" plan to end the war and to regulate the aftermath.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Points
...
The Fourteen Points was a speech delivered by United States President Woodrow Wilson to a joint session of Congress on January 8, 1918. The address was intended to assure the country that the Great War was being fought for a moral cause and for postwar peace in Europe.

People in Europe generally welcomed Wilson's intervention, but his Allied colleagues (Georges Clemenceau, David Lloyd George and Vittorio Emanuele Orlando) were skeptical of the applicability of Wilsonian idealism.[1]

The speech was delivered 10 months before the Armistice with Germany and became the basis for the terms of the German surrender, as negotiated at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919. The Treaty of Versailles had little to do with the Fourteen Points and so was never ratified by the U.S. Senate.[2]


But what came out in Versailles was something the US/Wilson didn't agreed with what led to the pullout of the US from the "peace conference" negotiations. Germany was f*ucked!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles#United_States_reject s_Treaty

...
Of the many provisions in the treaty, one of the most important and controversial required Germany to accept sole responsibility for causing the war and, under the terms of articles 231–248 (later known as the War Guilt clauses), to disarm, make substantial territorial concessions and pay heavy reparations to certain countries that had formed the Entente powers.

The total cost of these reparations was assessed at 132 billion Marks (then $31.4 billion, £6,600 million) in 1921 which is roughly equivalent to US$ 385 billion in 2011, a sum that many economists at the time, notably John Maynard Keynes, deemed to be excessive and counterproductive and would have taken Germany until 1988 to pay. [2][3]

The Treaty was undermined by subsequent events starting as early as 1932 and was widely flouted by the mid-1930s.[4]

The result of these competing and sometimes conflicting goals among the victors was compromise that left none contented: Germany was not pacified or conciliated, nor permanently weakened. This would prove to be a factor leading to later conflicts, notably and directly the Second World War.[5]

hague1cmaeron:
...and whilst I think that Zamoyski exaggerates, there in no doubt that it did happen, The Russians used a similar tactic. often the Russians and Germans used such tactics to deny each other vital resources.


That only happened once, during "Total war" in WWII.
Don't mix up the wars....both differ greatly, in ideology, reasoning, causes and execution.

And even if, a serious historians work isn't to "exaggerate" but to present objective facts and to prove them with evidence.
VarsovianThreads: 91
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 Jan 25, 11, 11:33    #22
Count Adam Zamoyski - a true Brit. Still, nice wife. Rejected a marriage proposal from Imran Khan.
englishwarsawThreads: -
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 Jan 25, 11, 11:46    #23
I was just reading Zamoyski with some background knowledge on reparations. I didn't find any confirmation, but didn't search very hard. The Polish references I looked at were more concerned with the difficulty of raising revenue rather than international payment obligations. Maybe they considered the creation and saving of Poland was too worthwhile to complain about the resulting burden of payments. I just felt that Zamoyski's 'unbelievable obligation' needed answering: it is too obviously an element of narrow, biased thinking or (perhaps more fair) simply sensationalism to make his book more interesting.

I have his 2009 revised version, now entitled 'Poland - A History', where the claim is maintained. I haven't read the book yet though, as my immediate interest is in the earliest known archaeological history of Poland. His first page of Chapter 1 is wrong and misleading. Between his period of "unwarlike and agricultural people" and "settled by Sarmatians" (if either of those are true) came the mighty warrior tribes popularly known as the Vandals, who, after devastating much of Europe, eventually destroyed Rome. Some of their forebears lived a couple of hundred metres away from my house, making weapons for huge armies. People with magic names like 'Goths' and 'Huns' passed through here as well.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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 Jan 25, 11, 12:02    #24
He should sell his books as fiction not as history....
hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
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 Jan 25, 11, 12:09    #25
englishwarsaw:
Between his period of "unwarlike and agricultural people" and "settled by Sarmatians" (if either of those are true) came the mighty warrior tribes popularly known as the Vandals, who, after devastating much of Europe, eventually destroyed Rome. Some of their forebears lived a couple of hundred metres away from my house, making weapons for huge armies. People with magic names like 'Goths' and 'Huns' passed through here as well.

I find find him quite prone to hyperbole at times, as a way of trying to demonstrate his language abilities.

Interesting it seems like quite a hard topic to research.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 25, 11, 12:17    #26
hague1cmaeron:
Interesting it seems like quite a hard topic to research.


Well...books and facts about the history of Europe and WWII is not exactly hard to find....if he had wanted to.

Another thing though is finding proof for unsubstantiated allegations which are just not true. That would be a miracle to find, that's true! ;)
hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
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 Jan 25, 11, 12:18    #27
Bratwurst Boy:
That only happened once, during "Total war" in WWII.
Don't mix up the wars....both differ greatly, in ideology, reasoning, causes and execution.

And even if, a serious historians work isn't to "exaggerate" but to present objective facts and to prove them with evidence.



I am not mixing up wars:

"In 1915 Polish territories were looted and abandoned by the retreating Russian army, trying to emulate the scorched earth policy of 1812;[1][2] the Russians also evicted and deported hundreds of thousands of its inhabitants suspected of collaborating with the enemy.[1][3][4] By the end of 1915, the Germans had occupied the entire Russian sector, including Warsaw. In 1916 another Russian offensive in Galicia exacerbated the already desperate situation of civilians in the war zone; about 1 million Polish refugees fled eastward behind Russian lines during the war."
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 25, 11, 12:19    #28
Well...then better talk about Russians and not Germans in WWI. I'm not an expert on russian history.

PS: In 1915 there hadn't been "polish territories".
VarsovianThreads: 91
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 Jan 25, 11, 12:21    #29
Sausage churl - you'll find that there is little actually known about Poland in antiquity and the Dark Ages due to the lack of archaeology. Loads written, little known - doesn't that speak volumes? Next, you'd have an American know-it-all writing about Mieszko I ...
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jan 25, 11, 12:24    #30
Varsovian:
Sausage churl - you'll find that there is little actually known about Poland in antiquity and the Dark Ages due to the lack of archaeology. Loads written, little known - doesn't that speak volumes? Next, you'd have an American know-it-all writing about Mieszko I ...


Heh:)

Mainstream info in Wiki (I'm sure polish wiki is much more informative)
Zamoyski should have tried it for starters....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory_and_protohistory_of_Poland

...
The area of present-day Poland went through the stages of socio-technical development known as the Stone, Bronze and Iron Ages, while experiencing the climatic shifts of the glacial periods. The best known archeological discovery from the prehistoric period is the Lusatian-culture Biskupin fortified settlement. As ancient civilizations unfolded in southern and western Europe, the cultures of the area of present-day Poland came to be influenced in varying degrees by the civilizations.

Celtic, Germanic and Baltic tribes inhabited various parts of Poland. Eventually, in the Middle Ages, the area came to be dominated by Slavic tribes and finally became home to a number of West Slavic Polish tribes that formed small states in the region, beginning in the 8th century.

I wonder how Zamoyski describes the period where Slavic tribes did wander into germanic settled lands and how that worked out all "unwarlike" as they were! ;)


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