Poland and Orientalism

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Jul 28, 11, 10:33 #121

Paul Kriwaczek who wrote of an imperial Austrian saying that states that the Orient begins on the outskirts of Vienna.

That is not a very smart quote, because it would basically mean that half of Austria would have to be oriental-can you find any serious minded Austrian who believes that is the case?

As for your observations about German views on the Poles: yes it's true they definitively viewed Poland as economically backward at the time in comparison to Germany, which for various reasons was an accurate observation, but at no point did they view them as oriental-in the true meaning of the term.

As for Von Moltke-he wasn't just any man, he was the Prussian chief of staff. And according to him Poland was one of the most civilized European states in the 15th century-not quite what you would describe as oriental is it?

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Edited by: Des Essientes Jul 28, 11, 11:46 #122

Hague-cameron, German stereotypes regarding Poles see them as more than merely econonmically less developed than themselves but also as disorderly, chaotic, and childish. These attributes which Germans, and not only Germans but other Westerners as well, ascribe to Poles are exactly the same attributes that are ascribed by Orientalists to other peoples from the from the East. Dismissive Orientalist attitudes towards Poles are still in abundance amongst people from the West and one need only peruse this forum to see this fact. Von Molte's describing Poland as one of the most civilized states in Europe in the 15th Century does nothing to change the fact that his fellow Germans, and even he himself, still had Orientalist attitudes towards Poles in the 19th Century. Orientalists have absolutely no problem acknowledging that the Arabs, for example, had been among the most civilized and refined people on Earth back in the glory days of the Caliphs when they kept classical science and learning alive while Europe plodded through its Dark Ages. This acknowledgement of past glories and civilizational triumphs does not prevent Orientalists from claiming that the Orient of the present is wild, disorderly, debased and in need of Western overlords to be properly governed, and Von Molte's comments acknowledging the past civilizational glory of Poland, several hundred years before he was writing, are exactly along these same lines.

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Jul 31, 11, 06:25 #123

This acknowledgement of past glories and civilizational triumphs does not prevent Orientalists from claiming that the Orient of the present is wild, disorderly, debased and in need of Western overlords to be properly governed, and Von Molte's comments acknowledging the past civilizational glory of Poland, several hundred years before he was writing, are exactly along these same lines.

It seems to me as though you would like to attribute to yourself a nonexistent victimhood based on a "catch all" term which was never designed in reference to the Poles. Some of the observations you attribute to the Germans, could just as well have been made by the Germans in regards to the Italians, and a 1000 years ago used by the Romans to describe the Germans-every nation has its prejudices.

modafinilThreads: - Posts: 831 Joined: Jun 28, 11 ♂	Jan 4, 12, 15:04 #124
As Poles are from the east of Europe and come to England, can the ones in the UK then be called WOGS - the acronym of Westernised Oriental Gentlemen. Better still, Polliwogs, as one who has traveled across water but never the equator.

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Edited by: czar Jan 5, 12, 09:32 #125

Ironside:

Well, Poland was viewed as a backwoods country because of the democratic constitution while all civilized countries enjoyed absolute rules.
Today current form of democracy is seen as the most advanced, who knows what tomorrow will bring ?

poland has never been imperialistic in its constitution, that might be viewed as backwoods...

it may have seemed backwards cause poland had little need for diplomacy.

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