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Poland - Scotland, the untold story...


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dtaylor5632Threads: 49
Posts: 4,459
Joined: May 2, 09  Pictures: 3 ♂ 		Edited by: dtaylor5632  Aug 5, 10, 02:09    #1
How many people here know that in the 17th century a Polish princess married a Scottish King in exile?
A little clue...
On the death of his father he was declared 'James III' and recognised as such by Louis XIV of France. He married a Polish Princess, Maria Clementina Sobieski on 3 Sept, 1719, by whom he had issue. Three failed Jacobite uprisings were lead in his name, in 1715, 1719 and 1745, James died in Rome on 1 January, 1766 and was buried within St.Peter's Basilica, the Vatican.
enkiduThreads: 18
Posts: 983
Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂ 		 Aug 5, 10, 02:13    #2
All I know is that in eastern Poland you can still find people, who are look and behave like Scotts.
dtaylor5632Threads: 49
Posts: 4,459
Joined: May 2, 09  Pictures: 3 ♂ 		 Aug 5, 10, 02:18    #3
It was from this Polish Princess that the Jacobite rebellion started. Her son, from what i can remember is Bonnie Prince Charlie...
BzibziohThreads: 6
Posts: 3,657
Joined: Oct 15, 08 ♀ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Bzibzioh  Aug 5, 10, 02:20    #4
enkidu:
All I know is that in eastern Poland you can still find people, who are look and behave like Scotts.

They are frugal, not cheap ;) and shut up!!!

dtaylor5632:
It was from this Polish Princess

What was her name?
dtaylor5632Threads: 49
Posts: 4,459
Joined: May 2, 09  Pictures: 3 ♂ 		 Aug 5, 10, 02:22    #5
Bzibzioh:
What was her name?

I said before, Maria Clementina Sobieski.
BzibziohThreads: 6
Posts: 3,657
Joined: Oct 15, 08 ♀ [Suspended] 		 Aug 5, 10, 02:30    #6
dtaylor5632:
I said before, Maria Clementina Sobieski.

Oh, you edited. She was a granddaughter of king Jan III Sobieski. Yeah, those European aristocrats were marring each other so they are all connected in some way to this day.
szkotja2007Threads: 38
Posts: 2,544
Joined: Dec 29, 06 ♂ 		 Aug 6, 10, 23:25    #7
dtaylor5632:
Her son, from what i can remember is Bonnie Prince Charlie...

Whose middle names were Casimir and Silvester.
David_18Threads: 111
Posts: 1,212
Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: David_18  Aug 7, 10, 01:43    #8
Nothing new to me ;)

They almost got the french to invade Britain!!!
His father managed to obtain the support of the French government in 1744, and Charles Edward traveled to France with the sole purpose of commanding a French army, which he would lead in an invasion of England. The invasion never materialized, principally due to the fact that the French were afraid of the much stronger British army and, to a lesser extent, because of poor weather that prohibited sailing. Undeterred, Charles Edward was determined to carry on in his quest for reinstatement of the Stuarts regardless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Edward_Stuart

On 8 February 1744 Charles arrived at Paris and during February and March he was with the French invasion force. Maurice of Saxony had between 12,000 and 15,000 French troops at Dunkirk ready for a landing in Essex

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobite_rising_of_1745


Maria Clementina Sobieska
Being one of Europe's wealthiest heiresses, she was betrothed to James Francis Edward Stuart. King George I of Great Britain was opposed to the marriage because he feared that the union might produce heirs to James Francis Edward's claim to his thrones. In order to placate him, the Holy Roman Emperor Charles VI arrested Maria Clementina while on her way to Italy to marry James Francis Edward. She was confined in Innsbruck Castle but eventually the guards were deceived and Maria Clementina escaped to Bologna, Italy, where, just to be safe from further intrusions, she was married by proxy to James who was in Spain at that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Clementina_Sobieska
dtaylor5632Threads: 49
Posts: 4,459
Joined: May 2, 09  Pictures: 3 ♂ 		 Aug 7, 10, 01:47    #9
David_18:
They almost got the french to invade Britain!!!

Point is, when the Scottish army reached Dover Castle, they never needed the French.
David_18Threads: 111
Posts: 1,212
Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: David_18  Aug 7, 10, 01:53    #10
dtaylor5632:
Point is, when the Scottish army reached Dover Castle, they never needed the French.

The brits feared for their lifes!!

On 31 August George returned to London from Hanover. On 4 September the Duke of Newcastle wrote to the Duke of Cumberland, requesting ten battalions of British soldiers:

Though I have constantly seen the reality and danger of this attempt to invade His Majesty's dominions, I did not imagine that, in so short a time, the Pretender's son, with an army of 3,000 men, would have got between the King's troops and England, and be within a few days' march of Edinburgh, where, some think, we shall soon hear that he is; and that he may attempt to call a Parliament there. Others rather suppose that he will proceed with his army through England, where there no regular troops to oppose him, 'till he comes towards London

Seems like this Charles was a little William Wallace of his own ;)

Braveheart for the win!!!!!
dtaylor5632Threads: 49
Posts: 4,459
Joined: May 2, 09  Pictures: 3 ♂ 		 Aug 7, 10, 01:55    #11
David_18:
Seems like the brits feared for their lifes!!

Alexander 2nd was true King of Scots.
hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
Posts: 1,652
Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂ 		 Aug 7, 10, 03:51    #12
dtaylor5632:
I said before, Maria Clementina Sobieski.

The daughter of great Jan Sobiseki, Saviour of Vienna in 1688, common knowledge.
BzibziohThreads: 6
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Joined: Oct 15, 08 ♀ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Bzibzioh  Aug 7, 10, 04:02    #13
hague1cmaeron:
The daughter

The granddaughter.
hague1cmaeron:
1688,

1683
guzzlerThreads: 6
Posts: 165
Joined: Mar 28, 10 ♂ 		 Aug 7, 10, 04:12    #14
dtaylor5632:
It was from this Polish Princess that the Jacobite rebellion started. Her son, from what i can remember is Bonnie Prince Charlie...


Thats right he was the grandson of James 11, who was deposed by William of Orange after he invaded England with the help of some English traitors.
hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
Posts: 1,652
Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂ 		 Aug 7, 10, 05:37    #15
My mistake

I am blushing now right now, I meant to say granddaughter, however i have no excuses for the date):
TrevekThreads: 33
Posts: 2,155
Joined: May 21, 08 ♂ 		 Aug 24, 10, 19:11    #16
guzzler:
Thats right he was the grandson of James 11, who was deposed by William of Orange after he invaded England with the help of some English traitors.


And aided by a few Scots as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Mackay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Glencoe
MIPKThreads: -
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Joined: May 21, 10 ♂ 		 Aug 24, 10, 19:26    #17

warszawskiThreads: 60
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Joined: May 21, 10 ♂ 		 Aug 24, 10, 19:32    #18
enkidu:
All I know is that in eastern Poland you can still find people, who are look and behave like Scotts.


Many scots came to Poland and fought on behalf, you will this in the records in Gdansk and Krakow.
CrowThreads: 367
Posts: 7,316
Joined: Feb 14, 07  Pictures: 1 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Aug 24, 10, 19:52    #19
Poland - Scotland, the untold story...

i see Scotland as part of new Polish Commonwealth

all Celts with Poles!
George8600Threads: 20
Posts: 1,114
Joined: Feb 19, 09 ♂ 		 Aug 24, 10, 19:56    #20
dtaylor5632:
How many people here know that in the 17th century a Polish princess married a Scottish King in exile?


Yes I know, exactly how significant is it? Not much...
TrevekThreads: 33
Posts: 2,155
Joined: May 21, 08 ♂ 		 Aug 24, 10, 21:09    #21
warszawski:
Many scots came to Poland and fought on behalf, you will this in the records in Gdansk and Krakow.


The Scots had over 12 self-governing 'brotherhoods' in different cities in Poland during 17th century. Established by order of James VI (II of England). Warsaw had a 3 times mayor called Alexander Chalmers (czarmerz) from Aberdeen (I think).
szkotja2007Threads: 38
Posts: 2,544
Joined: Dec 29, 06 ♂ 		 Aug 24, 10, 22:02    #22
Trevek:
he Scots had over 12 self-governing 'brotherhoods' in different cities in Poland during 17th century

Sounds interesting - any links ?

I have read about Czarmerz.
warszawskiThreads: 60
Posts: 2,387
Joined: May 21, 10 ♂ 		 Aug 24, 10, 22:07    #23
Trevek:
The Scots had over 12 self-governing 'brotherhoods' in different cities in Poland during 17th century. Established by order of James VI (II of England). Warsaw had a 3 times mayor called Alexander Chalmers (czarmerz) from Aberdeen (I think).


The Alexander Chalmers from Aberdeen was a writer and published novels, I do not think it is the same one that died in Poland was was buried at St Johns,here is a link

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/josephd.ross/index.html
David_18Threads: 111
Posts: 1,212
Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 24, 10, 22:13    #24
szkotja2007:
Sounds interesting - any links ?

Yea you can find everything in here :)

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/josephd.ross/index.html

In the second half of the sixteenth and in the seventeenth century many Scots entered military service in Poland, as mercenaries. Indeed there was scarcely a country in Europe which did not have Scots in its army. There is some information on the number of Scottish immigrants in Poland, in the accounts of Scottish travellers in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. The most important, and probably most impartial, is the relation of William Lithgow, from Lanarkshire, who for nineteen years travelled in distant countries and stayed for some time in Poland, at the beginning of the seventeenth century.

In his memoir, often reprinted, he writes as follows:

Being arrived in Krakow ... the capital city of Poland I met with diverse Scottish merchants, who were wonderful glad of mine arrival there, especially the two brothers Dicksons, men of singular note of honesty and wealth.... Here (at Lublin) I found abundance of gallant, rich merchants, my countrymen, who were all very kind to me and so were they by the way in every place where I came, the conclusion being ever sealed with deep draughts, and God be with you. Then he calls Poland 'populous of strangers' and continues: And for auspiciousness, I may rather term it to be a mother and nurse for the youth and younglings of Scotland who are yearly sent hither in great numbers, than a proper Dame for her own birth; in clothing, feeding, and enriching them with the fatness of her best things; besides thirty thousand Scots families, that live incorporate in her bowels. And certainly Poland may be termed in this kind to be the mother of our Commons and the first commencement of all our best merchants' wealth, or at least most part of them.
warszawskiThreads: 60
Posts: 2,387
Joined: May 21, 10 ♂ 		 Aug 24, 10, 22:25    #25
I read the article earlier today, I thought it was very interesting how some of the Scottish names evolved into Polish names. for example lawson to Lason.
TrevekThreads: 33
Posts: 2,155
Joined: May 21, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: Trevek  Aug 24, 10, 22:30    #26
szkotja2007:
Sounds interesting - any links ?


http://www.electricscotland.com/history/poland/scotsndx.htm

(the other books on Scots in Germany and Prussia also have info about Scots in Poland)

warszawski:
The Alexander Chalmers from Aberdeen was a writer and published novels, I do not think it is the same one that died in Poland was was buried at St Johns


You might well be right. I seem to recall reading he was from Aberdeen(shire) or I might just be mixing it up with the fact a lot of Scots came from Aberdeen to Poland.

Here's a couple of links which might be of interest.

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Scotland39s-Poles-split-over-plan.48 40614.jp
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/photo.php?pid=1636105&id=717608495 &ref=fbx_album

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/poland/appendix2.htm
http://www.sikorskipolishclub.org.uk/connections.htm
http://www.warsaw-life.com/news/news/1228-Warsaw's_Scottish_Mayor_Reme mbered
http://bpcc.org.pl/en/images/stories/file/contact_86_OnLine.pdf
warszawskiThreads: 60
Posts: 2,387
Joined: May 21, 10 ♂ 		 Aug 24, 10, 23:00    #27
Trevek:
Here's a couple of links which might be of interest.


I went through them briefly and read your article. How good is your Polish Trevek?
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Aug 24, 10, 23:30    #28
Trevek:
or I might just be mixing it up with the fact a lot of Scots came from Aberdeen to Poland.


Cheers for those links- and yes, I'm another one in a long line of Aberdonians who came here :)
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 24, 10, 23:36    #29
Yeah, their influence is acutely felt in Kraków and Poznań. We taught them their ways :)
Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34
Posts: 2,358
Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂ 		 Aug 25, 10, 02:53    #30
Seanus:
We taught them their ways :)

I sense Seanus pride

You been drinking Polish Wódka? ;)

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