"Poland's Concentration Camp"???

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Edited by: cyg May 31, 08, 01:26 #301

Piorun:

One of them was about people from Siemiatycze traveling to Belgium in search of illegal work before Poland joined EU, so I thought you might have been involved in that project. If so I would like to know if it’s worth reading.

Aaaah. Sorry about jumping on you but after reading some of the conversation here I thought I saw a "see - he's in with the Jews" thing coming.

In fact, I only took the pictures for the CSM story about Siemiatycze. Someone else wrote the articles.

As far as the book goes, I think it's worth reading if you're interested in that segment of history. However, I'd say the first volume is probably more valuable as a primary source because of the method in which the stories were collected - as a survey for association membership, originally not meant for publication. That means they're much more matter-of-fact than the second book, where some of the authors try to get artistic with their account, sometimes to no great effect.
Both give a slightly different perspective than most Holocaust stories because the people involved actually stayed in Poland and often had normal, full lives afterwards. The gradations of good and evil are much more subtly distributed than in some other accounts I've seen/read. That doesn't mean they're a pleasant read, though.

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May 31, 08, 11:13 #302

I’m not at all interested in the conclusion of the author or the politics involved when reading such accounts but rather how people manage to cope with hardship of life. War time stories are of particular interest to me because they represent the extremes of what life can throw at you. Being the accounts of a common soldier or a civilian it gives a small insight to their thoughts, feelings and state of mind at that particular situation and how they manage to deal with it. Since I’m not familiar with authors’ style of writing I was hoping you would give me a bit more insight. The more actual quotes in the book, the better. If you could elaborate a bit more from this perspective I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks

cygThreads: 8 Posts: 153 Joined: Oct 31, 07 ♂	May 31, 08, 15:20 #303
Both volumes are collections of first-person accounts by survivors, with only an introduction added by the main editor, himself a Holocaust survivor. I'm not sure how much editing was done on the individual pieces before I got them to translate, though my understanding was that they wanted to keep them as authentic as possible.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,895 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	May 31, 08, 16:11 #304
Maybe jewish soap found use in polish concentration camps as well.Harry has to search for soap.

PiorunThreads: - Posts: 741 Joined: Nov 11, 07 ♂	Edited by: Piorun May 31, 08, 16:50 #305
Really useful info, thank you very much cyg.

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May 31, 08, 22:53 #306

You know i dont know what this fuss is about.
my mothers family was her mother father 11 brother and sisters. my father had his father and mother and 13 brothers and sisters. After 3 years of war can anyone guess how many surrvived ?
my 2 parents and my mothers brother. THATS 3 OUT OF 28. God bless the WAR. all of my liftime my father slept with a hammer under his bed because of fear someone in a uniform would come to the door to drag us kids away. he feared all uniformed people. finally he hung himself in our garage. i tried to help him but what could i do i couldnt even think how to get him down sure.
i suppose i could get a big knife and slice the rope ........ you figure the rest.
The very worst part was waiting for my brother to get home from school. i got a neighbour to ring an ambulance. . could you ring an ambulance my dad has just hung himself. and i took off and waited at the street corner. I waited and waited and waited............................................................ it was an eternity
no ambulance no brother. How often do you gentlemen try to kill yourselves because of your grief or go online to see a bit of merriment. and yet you see people who spit nonsense.

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Jun 1, 08, 02:35 #307

hancock:

hancock

It is a tragic tale, quite upsetting to read. But it does put so much humanity into the subject that is being discussed - one of the most inhumane acts in recorded history. But the personal, the emotional, the responses regard the loss of lives and the devastating consequences for the ones who are left behind.

People making light of the subject only do themselves a discredit, but likewise those who react with greed - people who look for what they can get out of the descendents of their fellow victims.

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Jun 1, 08, 04:04 #308

i wrote this in a quite neutal state of mind so it really didnt do much to me. but what it seems is that truth is just stranger than fiction i have known a few people personally who have lived terrible lives because of the war. i have also read a bit of words. but words on paper are not the truth. mangled limbs family instead of families left or should i say fam.... pieces of a baby covered up brought back to a mother to prove that it is her child who is dead. otherwise she cannot believe it can be so she runs aroud looking everywhere for it and doesnt stop. my own mother seperated from her daughter at 1 year of age (my half sister) she never got over this. her first husband died. she met my father in a camp. she never recovered she used to dress me like a girl and have me wear long hair. i looked cute i still have photos. my daughter looked a lot like me as a child. its quite funny. one thing my father said never go to war and hate noone. we had czech german english russian friends my father new all the languages. he would talk to everyone equally. i have followed. but others dont help why hate. ? ? ?

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Edited by: 1jola Dec 3, 09, 10:01 #309

Dec 3, 09, 19:51 - Thread attached on merging:
Polish concentration camp

Those bent on using the term Polish concentration camp should be aware that there were concentration camps for only Polish people. The Holocaust industry, concentrated on Jewish victims, plays down this fact to the point of falcifying available information.

Case in point: The Polen-Jugendverwahrlager der Sicherheitspolizei in Litzmannstadt was built in the fall of 1942 inside the Łódź Ghetto on the order of SS Reichsfuerher Himmler. Complete with 3 meter walls, guard towers, and SS staff, this concentration camps housed Polish children aged 8-16, and in the girl section as young as two. All children worked 10 to 12 hours a day on starvation level "meals," were brutaly beaten, and sometimes murdered. It operated inside the ghetto till the end of war. German and Polish sources list it as a concentration camp, but Holocaust sources seem very reluctant to even mention it so don't expect to find a lot of information on it. I'm not aware of any books in English on it, but there is a German book and one Polish one. The Polish text is:

Józef Witkowski: Hitlerowski Obóz Koncentracyjny dla małoletnich w Łodzi, Breslau (Wrocław) 1975

The USHMM (US Holocaust Memorial Museum) lists this book in their bibliography and describe it as such:

Concerns the identities and fates of the children of the 'Polen-Jugendverwahrlager' (='Holding Camp for Polish Youth') in Lodz, Poland, an orphanage created by the Germans for non-Jewish Polish orphans, which was located adjacent to the Lodz ghetto, and whose internees were for the most part later sent to Auschwitz.

First of all, they failed to translate the tittle, which is 'Nazi concentration camp for youth in Łódź." All of the sudden the Nazis are Germans, and the concentration camp is an orphanage(sic) for orphaned Poles. It was not adjecent to the ghetto, but was inside the ghetto walls. The only thing they got right is that the internees were transfered to Ravensbruck or Auschwitz on their 17th birthday.

Had this been a concentration camp for Jewish children, you, dear reader, would have heard about it. As it stands, there isn't even a wiki entry on it.

Lagerkommandant SS-Stumbannfuerher Karl Ehrlich:

"Orphanage" staff:

When they sent your parents to Auschwitz, you became an orphan all right:

"Broken Heart" Memorial in Łódź.

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Edited by: sjam Dec 3, 09, 11:49 #310

1jola:

As it stands, there isn't even a wiki entry on it.

Apart from this one :-)))

Jugendverwahrlager Litzmannstadt

Polen-Jugendverwahrlager Litzmannstadt in Łódź for Polish youths (established 1942 to prevent mixing of Poles and Germans in the same camps) Camps for Germans children too??

Google Results: 926 for Polen Jugendverwahrlager Litzmannstadt.

* * * *

Some estimates put the number of camps in Nazi occupied territories at 15,000! here is a list of some of them.

The most comprehensive list of the Nazi German camp system is still found in:

Martin Weinmann (ed.): Das nationalsozialistische Lagersystem (CCP Catalogue of Camps and Prisons in Germany and German-occupied territories, 1939 - 1945)

However it is not updated as many small prisoner camp records have been lost to history and may only exist in the living memory of survivors. The list is taken mainly from the ITS records.

Given the huge number of prisons and camps in the Nazi sytem it is no surprise, to me at least, that many camps are not well known.

It should be remembered that we know infinitely more about Nazi camps than we do about the Soviet camps of WWII which are still shrouded in secrecy (or forgotten) for the most part, and for me that is the important story that remains to be told—by serious historians not propagandists like Snores!!

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Dec 3, 09, 12:32 #311

sjam:

Apart from this one :-)))

Jugendverwahrlager Litzmannstadt

Oh, goody, you found a German entry. Pretty soon you might find the Polish one; languages you don't understand.

sjam:

Polen-Jugendverwahrlager Litzmannstadt in Łódź for Polish youths (established 1942 to prevent mixing of Poles and Germans in the same camps) Camps for Germans children too??

The camp was for Polish children, not Jewish, not German.

sjam:

Google Results: 926 for Polen Jugendverwahrlager Litzmannstadt.

I get 523,000 results for "turd" and don't think they are all websites about you.

sjam:

Given the huge number of prisons and camps in the Nazi sytem it is no surprise, to me at least, that many camps are not well known.

How many concentration camps for children do you know of?

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Edited by: sjam Dec 3, 09, 12:51 #312

1jola:

I get 523,000 results for "turd" and don't think they are all websites about you.

I get 1,490,000 for Polish Anti-Semite. So what?

Still doesn't negate the fact that there is a wiki entry for which you said:

1jola:

As it stands, there isn't even a wiki entry on it.

Maybe you can translate the German or Polish wiki page into English and do a great service to Poland with just a couple of hours of your time? That would be something tangible you could contribute to raise awareness for people like me of this concentration camp for Polish children. Somehow I think you will not undertake this small task? All bark and no action :-))

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Dec 3, 09, 13:28 #313
sjam: you could contribute to raise awareness for people like me I just did. Your awareness has been raised and now you know of a real Polish concentration camp so you can pepper various threads with it. Tell your local school about it too. Along with poor Anne Frank they can study the only concentration camp for children in their Holocaust lessons.

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Edited by: sjam Dec 3, 09, 14:05 #314

1jola:

I just did. Your awareness has been raised and now you know of a real Polish concentration camp so you can pepper various threads with it.

So I take it that you won't be creating an English wikki page for Polen Jugendverwahrlager Litzmannstadt.?

i thought not. Polish children in a German concentration camp are not worth that much to you after all—not even a couple of hours to translate a page of text to make up a wiki page in memory of Polish children in the Holocaust for the the milliions who are not on PF! You prove you are just background noise!!

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Dec 3, 09, 14:31 #315
sjam: Polish children in a German concentration camp are not worth that much to you after all You prove to us you are an idiot every day. I certainly will make an entry and will write USHMM to straighten out their nonsense.

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09 ♂	Dec 3, 09, 14:54 #316
1jola: I certainly will make an entry and will write USHMM to straighten out their nonsense. Bravo! Action speaks louder than words! Don't forget to post the link :-)))

frdThreads: 8 Posts: 1,956 Joined: Feb 3, 09 ♂	Dec 3, 09, 14:58 #317
sjam: Apart from this one :-))) I don't get it. What is your post about. Are you against or with 1jola on that stuff.

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09 ♂	Dec 3, 09, 15:02 #318
frd: I don't get it. What is your post about. Are you against or with 1jola on that stuff. What stuff????

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Dec 3, 09, 15:30 #319
frd: I don't get it. What is your post about. It's pretty much standard, he has a Pavlov's Dog reaction. When I say there is little information on the subjedt, he has no choice but to say there is a lot.

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Edited by: sjam Dec 3, 09, 16:55 #320

1jola:

When I say there is little information on the subjedt,

Actually that is not true either, what you said was:

1jola:

As it stands, there isn't even a wiki entry on it.

and yet there is a wiki entry (or two :-) on it!

And now you have agreed to create an English wiki page it will prove to be invaluable in telling the story of the Polish children's concentration camp to the widest audience. Look forward to seeing it :-))

SteveramsfanThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Nov 22, 09 ♂	Dec 3, 09, 17:06 #321
1jola: "Broken Heart" Memorial in Łódź. This is just outside the old Ghetto boundries.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Edited by: 1jola Dec 3, 09, 17:55 #322
Steveramsfan A map from a book published by the Łódź National Archives: The camp (#3) is clearly within the ghetto walls.

SteveramsfanThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Nov 22, 09 ♂	Dec 3, 09, 18:05 #323
1jola That helps, i was looking for a map like that :) The statue is just outside the camp and the ghetto 500m to the south. I will go for a look at it tomorrow.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Dec 3, 09, 18:15 #324
In 1947, the communist authorities razed the former camp to build housing. It is possible that the memorial is located on available site near the original camp and not exactly where it stood. It was built only in 1971. Two Polish students made a school project about the camp: http://www.lernen-aus-der-geschichte.de/?site=pr20050914221245&lp=en

SteveramsfanThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Nov 22, 09 ♂	Edited by: Steveramsfan Dec 3, 09, 18:26 #325
1jola There is not much left of what was the Ghetto but i will try and find the memorial. Have you heard of Radogoszcz NAZI prison in Lodz. http://www.muzeumtradycji.pl/page/index.php?str=197 This prison was not for Jews, it shows that the Nazi's wanted to exterminate all the Poles aswell as the Jews.

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Dec 3, 09, 18:54 #326

Steveramsfan:

Have you heard of Radogoszcz NAZI prison in Lodz.

The surviving kids mention it burning as the Germans flee.

Steveramsfan:

This prison was not for Jews, it shows that the Nazi's wanted to exterminate all the Poles aswell as the Jews.

It was a matter of time. They used Jews as labor for 3 years before started exterminating them; it would have taken more time, but the Poles were to be next. Many documents confirm this.

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09 ♀	Dec 3, 09, 18:59 #327
Sigh. The information about the camp is surely interesting but the way you people treat it kinda makes me wonder whether I should write a book on 'Polish Martyrology Industry' concentrated SOLELY on Poles and not just dismissing but also insulting other victims, particularly those who had it far worse than Poles.

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Edited by: Steveramsfan Dec 3, 09, 18:59 #328

1jola:

The surviving kids mention it burning as the Germans flee.

I have photo's on my Laptop from the museum, they started shooting the prisoners but they fought back. The Nazi's locked the doors and set fire to it, they just let them burn.

I make a distinction between Germans and Nazi's. Not all Germans were Nazi's and not all Nazi's were German.

vetala:

'Polish Martyrology Industry' concentrated SOLELY on Poles and not just dismissing but also insulting other victims,

You can, if you want to concentrate solely on Poles and insult other victims its your choice. I don't think it is fair to insult the Ukranians and Belorussians and the Romany and the disabled.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Dec 3, 09, 19:16 #329
vetala This is a Polish forum so it is natural to discuss Polish victims. If you want to discuss Jewish victims go to a Jewish board. vetala: dismissing but also insulting other victims I find USHMM's deception in calling a concentration camp for children an "orphanage" insulting, don't you? They don't often call other concentration camps "retirement homes." Why this one?

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Dec 3, 09, 19:47 #330

1jola:

Those bent on using the term Polish concentration camp should be aware that there were concentration camps for only Polish people.

Bereza Kartuska would be a good example. All of its victims were Polish citizens (although many of them didn't want to be and that was one of the reasons they were in the place).

1jola:

How many concentration camps for children do you know of?

Off the top of my head, the one in Zamosc which I visited last summer, the one at Zwierzyniec, the one at some village near Bilgoraj which I've forgotten then name of. There are more but those are the only ones I've been to.

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