"Poland's Concentration Camp"???

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vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09 ♀	Edited by: vetala Dec 3, 09, 20:31 #331
1jola: I find USHMM's deception in calling a concentration camp for children an "orphanage" insulting, don't you? I do. But the only way of fighting ignorance is through spreading awareness. Nobody will listen to arguments presented in an offensive, accusing and aggressive way. Which is why I don't listen to Harry, even if he sometimes makes sense.

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Dec 3, 09, 20:35 #332

vetala:

Sigh. The information about the camp is surely interesting but the way you people treat it kinda makes me wonder whether I should write a book on 'Polish Martyrology Industry' concentrated SOLELY on Poles and not just dismissing but also insulting other victims, particularly those who had it far worse than Poles.

I thought this post was

vetala:

Nobody will listen to arguments presented in an offensive, accusing and aggressive way.

too.

Can I ask who had it far worse than Poles?

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Edited by: Harry Dec 3, 09, 20:35 #333

vetala:

Nobody will listen to arguments presented in an offensive, accusing and aggressive way.

You can tell Poles about their concentration camps in any way you want: they still won't listen and will still deny the camps were Polish concentration camps.

Steveramsfan:

Can I ask who had it far worse than Poles?

Roma for a start. Approximately 50% of the Roma population of Europe was wiped out. Add in the other victims of the Porajmos and about a third of the Romani population of Europe died.

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Dec 3, 09, 20:48 #334

Harry:

You can tell Poles about their concentration camps in any way you want: they still won't listen and will still deny the camps were Polish concentration camps.

Like I posted in a different thread, concentration camp took on a new meaning after 1942. All these places known as concentration camps before did not mean "Death camp/Extermination camp"

Bergen Belsen was also a concentration camp and not a "death camp/Extermination camp" and this was in Germany.

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,995 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂	Dec 3, 09, 20:50 #335
Steveramsfan: All these places known as concentration camps before did not mean "Death camp/Extermination camp" And the phrase "concentration camp" still does not mean "Death/Extermination camp".

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Edited by: 1jola Dec 3, 09, 21:00 #336
vetala: I do. But the only way of fighting ignorance is through spreading awareness. So the Administrator of this "Polish" Forum moved this thread to News and Politics and burried it in some unrelated thread to spread awareness, I suppose. I ask to return the thread to Polish History and I can change the tittle if it doesn't suit the Administrator.

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Edited by: 1jola Dec 4, 09, 10:02 #337

Harry:

And the phrase "concentration camp" still does not mean "Death/Extermination camp".

Apparently, the Israeli press has no problem using the term "Polish concentration camps"(sic) in reference to Nazi camps.

They have graduated to using "Polish Extermination Camps."(sic)

From today's Haaretz:

Hajda, four years his junior, was charged 12 years ago with aiding in the murder of hundreds of Jews in Treblinka, another Polish extermination camp, in 1944.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1131914.html

I posted this comment at the end of the article:

I wonder if calling Treblinka II a "Jewish Extermination Camp" would not be more appropriate?

Any thoughts on that?

It would be comment #4 if it gets printed. I doubt it, but let's see.

Perhaps the goal of this major Israeli newspaper is to stir up "anti-Semitism?", or belief that Poles were Nazis.

The Polish MSZ should sue this newspaper and stop asking for accuracy in their statements as this has no effect.

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Dec 4, 09, 11:54 #338

1jola:

Apparently, the Israeli press has no problem using the term "Polish concentration camps"(sic) in reference to Nazi camps.

Some Israeli journalists are morons. Is that news? I would very much suspect that the percentage of Israeli journalists who are morons is pretty much identical to the percentage of Polish journalists who are morons.

Anyway, I also left a comment to the article. "The phrase "Treblinka, another Polish extermination camp". Treblinka was run by German Nazis, Poles played no part in it other than being exterminated there. Constant use of the phrase "Polish concentration camp" to describe Nazi camps is at best disgracefully sloppy journalism and at worst an attempt to blame Poland for Nazi crimes. Kindly correct this article."

I wonder if it might be worth dropping a few emails to the Polish embassy in Tel Aviv about this? Anybody up for that?

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,995 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂	Dec 4, 09, 16:13 #339
If anybody cares enough to email the paper (I just did), use: feedback@haaretz.co.il; editor@haaretz.co.il; saram@haaretz.co.il (editor of the online edition).

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Dec 4, 09, 18:15 #340

Harry:

Some Israeli journalists are morons. Is that news?

Journalists cannot write what they want without approval of editors. The use of "Polish Extermination Camps" (sic) is deliberate. Why? You tell me.

Despite the obvious protest against using such lies, Israeli, American, French, and Spanish newspapers continue to lie in our faces. Certainly, it doesn't mean that all the nationalities above are cupable of spreading lies; however, not speaking up is cowardly.

Harry:

Anyway, I also left a comment to the article.

I see your comment along with mine in the trash bin of Haaretz. You and I made wrong comments.

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Edited by: cheehaw Dec 5, 09, 00:53 #341

1jola:

Why? You tell me.

There are people among that group of 'a' jew.. who use this tactic to get themselves handsome reparation$ 1jola.

This is just another way to bankroll the mansion. Poland being the victim in this case.. (but don't repeat that since it's not politically correct?)

OH HOGWASH. You can say whatever you want. Don't buy into their stupid repression.

Change newspapers. there are plenty out here that don't foment the pro-a-jew-only viewpoint.

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Edited by: Boguslaw Feb 6, 10, 20:54 #342

Harry:

What you are still refusing to recognise Carol is that Poles ran concentration camps in Poland under the orders of the government of Poland both during and after WWII.

Can you provide some more substantial arguments about those camps. Where Poles were running such camps during WWII. Which polish government ordered to build them?

Also, give me the name of some acclaimed scholar who claims that Poles were running concentration camps after the War.

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,995 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂	Feb 8, 10, 14:47 #343
^Just google Salomon Morel and Czeslaw Geborski.

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Edited by: Bzibzioh Feb 8, 10, 15:19 #344

1jola:

Despite the obvious protest against using such lies, Israeli, American, French, and Spanish newspapers continue to lie in our faces. Certainly, it doesn't mean that all the nationalities above are cupable of spreading lies; however, not speaking up is cowardly.

Add Canadian to that list. "Polish concentration camps" was a common phrase for a long time. But protest helps: recently there is more "Nazi's camps located in Poland" in a serious reports or articles but I can still see "Polish concentration camps" in a movie, book or travel reviews. And funnily always in articles reprinted from a British press.

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Feb 8, 10, 18:27 #345

1jola:

The use of "Polish Extermination Camps" (sic) is deliberate. Why? You tell me

Indeed, also use of phrases like 'polish enthusiastic role in holokaust', 'auschwitz operated by poles', 'poles even worse than nazis' and all these happened to be loaded in one only paragraph:

Ynet News:

Speaking at the Auschwitz death camp in Poland, the greatest extermination facility in history, which was built in Polish territory (and not coincidently) and was operated by Poles, Netanyahu managed to skip the enthusiastic role played by the Poles in the Holocaust. In terms of their dedication to persecuting Jews, turning them over to the Nazis, and their active role in the extermination industry, the Poles were second only to the Germans, and sometimes even more devoted than them to the extermination work.

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Feb 8, 10, 19:47 #346

Just when I thought I had the peace of mind about the Polish-Jewish relations, and I felt things were taking on better and more relaxed view of each other, I watched a recent Isreali documentary that really brought me down. We've had discussions on this forum about Jewish youths visiting Poland and I was optimistict that they would understand the wartime realities, and given the proper background lecture I think they would understand and would be much wiser for it. Perhaps I had thought wrong. I have always thought that it was only the American kids that were brainwashed to believe that the Poles were as bad as the Nazis, but this seems to be untrue; the Istraeli kids are continued to be indoctrinataed to believe that we Poles are monsters out to kill them if we only get a chance. Thanks to the brave and armed Istraeli guards, we can't fullfill our fantasy. If you think I am full of it, watch this Israeli documentary and get back to me; I will be happy to discuss the relevant pieces of this film.

http://wideeyecinema.com/?p=7208

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Feb 8, 10, 20:54 #347

1jola
Ugh, terrifying. I didn't realize how bad it is. But there were about 30 kids on that trip and only about three interviews with them were shown so it could be that other kids didn't have a bad opinion on Poland and only those with really shocking views were shown - that's how documentaries are usually made. Still, the people who constantly tell them to watch out for an army of antisemites are idiots and deserve to be sacked.

matteroftaste	Feb 8, 10, 21:08 #348
scorpio: Poland's Concentration Camp Well, concentration camps in Poland sounds better.

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Feb 9, 10, 08:54 #349

vetala:

Still, the people who constantly tell them to watch out for an army of antisemites are idiots and deserve to be sacked.

I really see no reason for induced hostility. Manipulating young kids is very, very wrong. In this example the kids have no chance to see for themselves that they don't need escorts, armed guards, and hateful propaganda. Sad, to say the least. But, you're right, the director did pick some of the dumber girls to portray in their induced psychosis. What is unexusable is the behavior of the adults.

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Edited by: Boguslaw Feb 17, 10, 12:39 #350

Harry:

^Just google Salomon Morel and Czeslaw Geborski.

Lovely, but i was asking for names of some acclaim scholars who write about polish concentration camps and who claim that Poles were running those camps during and after the War.

As long as you will not provide such names, i will assume that you are just another closet nazi who is doing everything to dillute facts and create impression that victims of nazism - Poles, were worst than nazis.

After the war, during which 3 millions of polish Jews and 2 millions of ethnic Poles had been killed by nazis and their collaborators, those who were responsibility for supporting nazis policies were punish. For you punishing nazis obviously is a crime, for non-nazi people its simply justice

And here is about polish antisemitism:

Weinbaum noted that while "there is a tendency to try and 'contextualize' - as he defines it - the cases in which Poles participated in the annihilation of the Jews in Poland. "Polish society as a whole cannot be seen as a perpetrator-nation, as can be the Lithuanians," he said. While some Poles were complicit in the murder and despoliation of Jews, he noted, "others rescued them."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1145183.html

So much for accusing Poles for Holocaust. You should learn to distinguish between polish nazi collaborators, who betrayed polish Jews but also ethnic Poles, and polish nation that was subjected to nazi terror.

Your behaviour is quite odd and reminds me about thief who is pointing a finger on innocent people accusing them for stealing.

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Feb 17, 10, 14:12 #351

Boguslaw:

Lovely, but i was asking for names of some acclaim scholars who write about polish concentration camps and who claim that Poles were running those camps during and after the War.

So you can't even be bothered to read a little before your automatic responses kick in. OK, here are two acclaimed scholars (Polish ones too) who state that Poles ran concentration camps during and after WWII: Adam Dziurok District Bureau of National Education, Institute of National Remembrance [“IPN”] Katowice; Stefan Cardinal Wyszyński University, Warsaw) and Andrzej Majcher prosecutor at the Regional Commission for the Investigation of Crimes against the Polish Nation, IPN Katowice). They in particular name Aleksy Krut and Salomon Morel. Read about it here.

Boguslaw:

As long as you will not provide such names, i will assume that you are just another closet nazi who is doing everything to dillute facts and create impression that victims of nazism - Poles, were worst than nazis.

Nice touch, call your opponent a Nazi. Don't bother at all with the facts, just go straight in with the personal abuse, really shows how powerful your case is. But then when you are arguing with historical fact, all you have left to use are insults. Well done!

Boguslaw:

For you punishing nazis obviously is a crime, for non-nazi people its simply justice

Killing innocent women and children is obviously a crime. Killing innocent men is also a crime. Which is why camp commanders Morel and Gęborski were both charged with war crimes.

Boguslaw:

While some Poles were complicit in the murder and despoliation of Jews, he noted, "others rescued them."

So much for accusing Poles for Holocaust.

Perhaps you'd like to read your own sources? That source clearly says that some Poles took part in the the murder and despoliation of Jews!

Boguslaw:

You should learn to distinguish between polish nazi collaborators, who betrayed polish Jews but also ethnic Poles, and polish nation that was subjected to nazi terror.

You should learn to distinguish between what happened in Poland under Nazi occupation (i.e. Nazis ran concentration camps and extermination camps) and after Nazi occupation (i.e. Poles ran concentration camps).

Boguslaw:

Your behaviour is quite odd and reminds me about thief who is pointing a finger on innocent people accusing them for stealing.

Your behaviour is that of somebody who wants to lie about history and ignore all the bad things which his people did in the past, which means that his people will be likely to repeat those same mistakes in the future, or is it just a coincidence that Poland was home to illegal detention centres and took part in the illegal invasion of a sovereign nation?

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Feb 17, 10, 17:15 #352

1jola:

I see your comment along with mine in the trash bin of Haaretz. You and I made wrong comments.

I just looked at the Haaretz article and in the the Talkback section there are plenty of comments (nearly all of them) protesting the ignorant nonsense that the writer said about Poles operating Auschwitz. I stopped counting after 20 comments. So don't imply that Haaretz is suppressing your opinion.

My only consolation from this idiot's article is that he denounces the Israel army for killing civilians. If a person is so wrong about Poland, you can be sure he's wrong about Israel too.

TheOtherThreads: 4 Posts: 1,439 Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂	Edited by: TheOther Feb 17, 10, 17:29 #353
Boguslaw: perpetrator-nation This bullsh*t can only come from a representative of the World Jewish Congress, really. I hope they don't forget to call each and every member of the Israeli "perpetrator-nation" a baby killer next time Israel attacks the Gaza strip.

MEMBER ♂

Feb 17, 10, 18:19 #354

soon we will read how Poles started WW2 and how Germans protected Jews from Poles just because Poles did not pay retributions to Jews for so called their properties they lost during war, the properties that Germans took from them but they want Poland to pay so they started their propaganda, extortion war against Poles.
Jews forgot about properties they took from Poles during Polish partitions as Poles ware not allowed to own properties even if it use to belong to them from generation to generation.
now Jews created largest ghetto and systematically kill Palestinians, they took their land and water, build illegal settlements and if you say that they committing genocide against Palestinians they will always remind you about holocaust as if it is a excuse.

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,995 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂	Feb 17, 10, 18:42 #355
Marek11111: Poles started WW2 and how Germans protected Jews from Poles There is of course absolutely no evidence at all that Germany started WWII. Just as there is no evidence at all that Germans destroyed Warsaw.

TheOtherThreads: 4 Posts: 1,439 Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂	Feb 17, 10, 18:44 #356
Harry: no evidence at all that Germany started WWII Who declared war on whom first? ;)

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,858 Joined: Aug 6, 09 MEMBER ♂	Feb 17, 10, 18:46 #357
and there in no evidence that Poles run concentration camps during WW2 but idiots are saying it and you Harry.

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,995 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Harry Feb 17, 10, 18:52 #358
Marek11111: and there in no evidence that Poles run concentration camps during WW2 but idiots are saying it and you Harry. Just me and the IPN. TheOther: Who declared war on whom first? ;) The first declaration of war came from the British!

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Feb 17, 10, 19:23 #359

1jola:

this Israeli documentary

The 121 + comments are not sympathetic to this 'documentary'. I guess that by some Jewish standards it means that these people are also antiSemites or more properly antiJewish as there are many more Semites that are not Jewish than are Jewish.

1jola:

It was a matter of time. They used Jews as labor for 3 years before started exterminating them; it would have taken more time, but the Poles were to be next. Many documents confirm this.

Since Poles were not Jewish it isn't as important.

1jola:

the kids have no chance to see for themselves that they don't need escorts, armed guards, and hateful propaganda.

Truth doesn't matter; an agenda does.

I will never forget what an aging Jewish survivor told me some 30 years ago. He said, "it is important that the world see us as the ultimate victims. Others who died may have had a hand in their own suffering but we Jews are pure in this." (I admit to paraphrasing but that was his message).

It is this sort of "chosen people' thinking that brings me back to take another look at the plight of the so-called Palestinians. My sympathy has always been with Israel as I abhor the violence that so many Arabs perpetuate against Jews and against themselves - yet, there does seem to be something not quite right about so many spokesmen who claim to represent Jews. Blaming innocent Poles (or name your country) while dodging thorny issues like the role of Capos and other enforcers as well as attempting to skirt the role of Jews who pointed out Poles (for death) to incoming Russians makes my blood boil.

TheOtherThreads: 4 Posts: 1,439 Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂	Edited by: TheOther Feb 17, 10, 19:51 #360
Harry: The first declaration of war came from the British! So they started the war... :)

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