Harry: So you can't even be bothered to read a little before your automatic responses kick in. OK, here are two acclaimed scholars (Polish ones too) who state that Poles ran concentration camps during and after WWII: Adam Dziurok District Bureau of National Education, Institute of National Remembrance [“IPN”] Katowice; Stefan Cardinal Wyszy雟ki University, Warsaw) and Andrzej Majcher prosecutor at the Regional Commission for the Investigation of Crimes against the Polish Nation, IPN Katowice). They in particular name Aleksy Krut and Salomon Morel. Read about it here.
This is not an answer to my question. I was asking for ACCLAIM scholars and you provide me names of some anticommunist second-class historicians who not even use the term "concentration camp".
In fact, by giving me that link, you have just refuted your statement that Poles were running concentration camps after the war.
Some quootes from your link:
"Although the 安i皻och這wice camp bore the official title of a labour camp, it also fulfilled the function of a penal camp"
"Franz Brachmann recalls that the camp administration was indifferent to the deaths of inmates, and only when almost every single prisoner in barrack 7 (accommodating chiefly members of Nazi organisations) was ill were they provided with medicinal charcoal"
As you can see, those historicians resist to use the term "Polish concentration camp", just like it is clear that those victims of that labour camp were obviously not innocent, since members of nazi organizations hardly ever were such.
So, i will repeat myself. Provide some names of acclaim scholars who claim that Poles were running "CONCENTRATION CAMPS" during and after the war.
As long as you will not give me those names it will be clear that you are a closet nazi.
Harry: Nice touch, call your opponent a Nazi. Don't bother at all with the facts, just go straight in with the personal abuse, really shows how powerful your case is. But then when you are arguing with historical fact, all you have left to use are insults. Well done!
It is only cheap sophistry of a con-men. You are doing everything to trivalise nazism and depict Poles as someone who was even more criminal than nazis. By doing so, you want to erase remembrance about nazi past, as well as remembrance about nazi terror against Poles, and bit by bit justifying that terror suggesting that those Poles should be condemn equally with nazis. As every con-men you will play a martyr everythime when someone will gonna caught you lying. You dont care about human rights and staff, you just cant come to terms with a fact that nazism was the most genocidal and pathologic creed ever, so to undermine that fact, you have to accuse victims of nazism for even bigger crimes and by doing so you can say that nazis were not doing anything special, since Poles were the same.
You are disgusting.
Harry: Killing innocent women and children is obviously a crime. Killing innocent men is also a crime. Which is why camp commanders Morel and G瑿orski were both charged with war crimes.
I see that whole your knowledge comes from wikipedia. Do something crazy for a change and read some good books.
In Poland we say, that if one wants to hit a dog, one will always find a stick. And the same is with people like you. You are looking only for those information that will back your claim, selecting facts and ignoring those that dont compose with your paranoias.
Neither Morel nor Geborski were proven guilty let alone that behaviour of some members of IPN had all the hallmarks of antisemitism when its comes to the former one.
Irony, you are accusing Poles for virulent antisemitism, yet when it really occurs you ignore it. Symptomatic, that would imply, that you dont care about fate of Jews under nazi occupation, but you treat them as an objects, probably to trivalise crimes of real nazis and their collaborators.
Moreover, you are using Goebbels sophistry, to create this duplicitious moral panic. Victims of antinazi resistance were alway presented by nazi propaganda as innocent children and women. You have to prove first that those women in question were not members of nazi organizations, that they were not responsibility for exploting slave laborers. Next, you have to prove that those allegedly children were not members of Hilterjugend.
And don't forget that first of all, Salomon Morel is a Holocaust survivor. What is more interesting, he had been saved by a Pole -Jozef Tkaczyk who later had been designated as one of the Righteous Among the Nations by Yad Vashem for saving Morel’s life.
Irony, you try to accuse Poles for Holocaust and killing of Jews and then you are accuse one of those Jews that Poles - contrary to your version of history - saved during Holocaust for being responsibility for killing innocent women, children an men.
You cant forgive him that he survived Holocaust, can you?
Harry: Perhaps you'd like to read your own sources? That source clearly says that some Poles took part in the the murder and despoliation of Jews!
So, you cant come to terms with a statement that "(...)Polish society as a whole cannot be seen as a perpetrator-nation(...)" and that is why you select only that part which suits you, then you take this out of context and you are showing the world how Poles were really bad. This is exactly how nazi propaganda worked. I clearly stated that there was a substantial difference between polish nation which was subjected to nazi terror and polish nazi collaborators who betrayed polish society (Jews and Poles alike).
Harry: You should learn to distinguish between what happened in Poland under Nazi occupation (i.e. Nazis ran concentration camps and extermination camps) and after Nazi occupation (i.e. Poles ran concentration camps).
So now, you are playing a fool. Typical behaviour of a closet nazi whose lies are being exposed. You were the one who wrote that: "What you are still refusing to recognise Carol is that Poles ran concentration camps in Poland under the orders of the government of Poland both during and after WWII."
I expect that you will recognise your lie and apologise Poles for your libeling of polish society. Moreover, you still haven't proven that there were any concentration camps after the war in Poland.
Harry: Your behaviour is that of somebody who wants to lie about history and ignore all the bad things which his people did in the past, which means that his people will be likely to repeat those same mistakes in the future, or is it just a coincidence that Poland was home to illegal detention centres and took part in the illegal invasion of a sovereign nation?
Oh my, you are really a drama queen. History teach us that we should be beware of moralists and those who are so smoothly setting themselves up as authorities on human rights, western civilisation and claim the right to become defenders of pompatus values only to point finger and accuse others.
But speaking about those bad things that people did in the past, about which they dont want to learn, so they are bound to repeat them. Have you ever heard about Halabja?
The massacre of the Kurds was something big. It was the first and only time - cannot think of any other incidents - in which gas was used since World War II. This gassing, which was made possible in measure by western corporations which sold Sadaam the raw materials he needed, is one of the great atrocities of the post-WWII period.
It is very symptomatic, that everyone forgot about that crime, about Sadaam accomplices (Western Germany private capitalist companies, Ronald Reagan)[url=http://www.iraqwatch.org/suppliers/nyt-041303.gif][/url] , and about Kurds, yet everone is using pompatus language to depict present intervention in Iraq as almost equal to Holocaust. Its quite symptomatic that you stress existence of illegal detention centres in Poland in which small group of people - whose connections with some genuine terrorist groups are quite possible - were being held, yet you completely ignore planning gassing of 10 000 Kurds. Well, I see an analogy between this behaviour and that other one, when you lament about so called "polish concentration camps". You ignore victims of genuine and genocidal terror and simultaneusly to this you create moral panic depicting people who were responsibility for that terror in question as genuine victims. Talking about mistakes that are being repeated.
Bystanders and those who believe that are moraly superior using constantly pompatus language and preach others, are two side of the same coin. The former pretend that they didnt know, while they did know very well what was happening. They like to pose being moralists and point finger on someone else to distract attention from they own sins. This is how many westerners like to behave. Both during WWII and during gassing of Kurds. The latter, like to feel themselves superior towards others and are looking for excuses to dispise and exploite - directly or indirectly - those allegedly morally and culturally inferior. Murderers from Waffen-SS and real nazi collaborators or nazi raptile newspapers always used pompatus language, drenched in hysteria, arrogance, constantly moralising others, only to shift attention from they own crimes and justify them. After the war many nazis and their descendants become philosemits and started accusing everyone for Holocaust. Everyone except nazis and their real collaborators of course.
Your behaviour indicate, that you havent learned anything from the nazi past. Quite on the contrary, you are doing everything to dillute facts.
I reccomend to read prof. Istvan Deak Essays on Hitler's Europe or prof. David Cesarani.
Books are better source of information than wikipedia.
"Many Jewish historians, meanwhile, have shown the closeness between the two communities and challenged the stereotype that Jews and Christians on Polish soil lived in separate worlds. Relations between them, especially in small towns and villages, were more cordial and intimate than was once thought to be the case. The knowledge of the slaughter of the Jews in Poland and the bitter aftermath, including the attacks on survivors by rightwing Poles in 1945-7, created a distorting lens through which the past was viewed for decades. Fry is, evidently, still squinting backwards through these blood-coloured spectacles.
The truth is far more complex. Relations between Christians and Jews in Poland deteriorated in the 1920s and 1930s. But they were not exactly good anywhere in Europe, while Poland was subject to severe social, economic and political tensions. The anti-Jewish nationalists, the Endek party, had a disproportionate impact on public feeling, especially in the cities where there was intense economic competition between communities. This must be contrasted to the existence of liberal elements and a large socialist movement that eschewed all forms of racism. The large and influential Jewish workers' party, the Bund, stood should to shoulder with Polish socialists and trade unionists.
These links persisted into wartime and were essential to the survival of thousands of Jews in hiding as well as the emergence of the Jewish resistance. Perhaps more could have been done and sooner, and less grudgingly, but thousands of Poles from all walks of life and every political stripe aided Jews in defiance of draconian Nazi laws. After the great deportation of July-September 1942, over 20,000 Jews escaped from the Warsaw ghetto and found refuge on the "Aryan side". This would have been impossible without help from Christian Poles who risked their lives in the process.
It is true that only a few hundred Jews emerged from the ruins of Warsaw when the city was liberated, but this was partly because they had surfaced, prematurely as it turned out, during the uprising of August 1944. The Polish rebellion was fought over the cellars and hiding places where Jews had been concealed. Had it not been for this catastrophe, the survival rate for Jews in hiding in Warsaw would have been similar to the survival rate of Jews in hiding in the Netherlands."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/oct/12/stephen-fry-auschw itz-poland
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