Poland's 1945 - 1989 under communism or during socialism?

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Apr 23, 11, 12:58 #1

Over the years, the Polish people I speak to never refer to the past as our ' communist past ' they quote 'during Socialism'. Even when you listen to interviews with some of the most respected Poles in current Politics, they ' during Socialism'. Here on PF it is common to talk about the Communist past of Poland, although there is no usage of ' during Socialism '. It would be interesting to hear your views on this point.

Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless and stateless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production, free access to articles of consumption, and the end of wage labour and private property in the means of production and real estate.
In Marxist theory, communism is a specific stage of historical development that inevitably emerges from the development of the productive forces that leads to a superabundance of material wealth, allowing for distribution based on need and social relations based on freely-associated individuals.The exact definition of communism varies, and it is often mistakenly, in general political discourse, used interchangeably with socialism; however, Marxist theory contends that socialism is just a transitional stage on the road to communism. Leninists revised this theory by introducing the notion of a vanguard party to lead the proletarian revolution and to hold all political power after the revolution, 'in the name of the workers' and supposedly with worker participation, in a transitional stage between capitalism and socialism.

No matter what specific form the communist revolution takes, its aim is for the working class to replace the bourgeoisie as the ruling class to establish a society without class divisions, called socialism, as a prelude to attempting to achieve the final stage of communism.

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Apr 23, 11, 14:16 #2

Most Poles say 'za komuny' (duriing commie times) or 'w PRL-u' (short for the Peoples' Republic). Regardless what the drunken Jews Marx and Engels may have jotted down at their cafe table, Poland experienced 'real socialism', the replacement of the old middle class with the 'red bourgeoisie'. The rhetoric spoke of dictatorship of the proletariat but it was actually the dictatorship of senior party hacks. A vintage riddle that tells it all went: Entry in the Polish Communist Party Dictionary -- cognac, n., the favourite tipple of the working class, vicariously consume on their behalf by the party leadership.

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Apr 23, 11, 14:28 #3

warszawski:

Over the years, the Polish people I speak to never refer to the past as our ' communist past ' they quote 'during Socialism'. Even when you listen to interviews with some of the most respected Poles in current Politics, they ' during Socialism'. Here on PF it is common to talk about the Communist past of Poland, although there is no usage of ' during Socialism '. It would be interesting to hear your views on this point.

I think that's because commies themselves called It that way -> PRL was a socialist state, the system was socialsim and communism was some distant goal to be achieved in the future...

In the Western Europe they rather call it communism to differentiate it from western mainstream socialistic parties -> high taxes/welfare state etc. but still democratic, "capitalistic" and so on. In the US, on the other hand, they call them liberals...

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Apr 23, 11, 14:34 #4
Polonius3: Most Poles say 'za komuny' (duriing commie times) or 'w PRL-u' (short for the Peoples' Republic). Regardless what the drunken Jews Marx and Engels may have jotted down at their cafe table Marx died in 1883. Engles died in 1895. Peoples' Republic of Poland was 'born' in 1952 and 'died' in 1990.

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Edited by: antheads Apr 23, 11, 14:52 #5

Well theres many forms of socialism, polands being prob the most moderate in eastern europe, private property was allowed, people could run a business in certain economic areas. The church was allowed with many party members being openly catholic. However the communist class was not overthrown but shared power in 89. This meant that many of the means of production fell into their hands during the privatisation era.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Apr 23, 11, 15:09 #6
antheads: This meant that many of the means of production fell into their hands during the privatisation era. Interestingly, many of those enterprises are now either defunct or struggling - while many post-89 enterprises set up by non-Communists are flourishing.

warszawskiThreads: 60 Posts: 2,387 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Apr 23, 11, 16:54 #7
antheads: However the communist class was not overthrown but shared power in 89. Communist class or Intelligentsia there is a difference? Grzegorz_: In the Western Europe they rather call it communism to differentiate it from western mainstream socialistic parties Grzegorz, very interesting point, do you have any sources to you as reference on the above?

AdamKadmonThreads: 38 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂	Apr 23, 11, 17:07 #8
warszawski: Grzegorz, very interesting point, do you have any sources to you as reference on the above? In the 19th Century, the term "Social Democrat" was used as a broad catch-all for international socialists owing their basic ideological allegiance to Karl Marx or Ferdinand Lassalle. [Social democracy]

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Apr 23, 11, 17:10 #9

I think this discussion needs mention of curfews, or the police hours as they are called in Polish. When you start imposing such restrictions on people then it's one step beyond mainstream socialism IMHO. My main conception of socialism is sth like Aneurin Bevan's vision for the NHS, 'from cradle to grave'. Socialism isn't oppressive in the wider sense. The rich have more taken from them and the poor often have decent social care/provisions. For real oppression, see harsh regimes like the former Bathi one in Iraq.

rybnikThreads: 29 Posts: 1,232 Joined: Jan 16, 11 ♂	Apr 23, 11, 17:23 #10
Seanus: I think this discussion needs mention of curfews, or the police hours as they are called in Polish. When you start imposing such restrictions on people then it's one step beyond mainstream socialism IMHO Curfews were only imposed during the martial law period. In Wroclaw, at least in my experience, they were loosely enforced especially at the end.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 23, 11, 17:30 #11
In which case, comparisons/contrasts need to be drawn to purely communist regimes such as in Cuba or the USSR as it was known. Even then, it was called the United Soviet Socialist Republic. That's why I have drifted away from the overly simplistic nonsense I was taught at secondary school and look beyond the labels.

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Apr 23, 11, 17:32 #12

Seanus:

think this discussion needs mention of curfews, or the police hours as they are called in Polish. When you start imposing such restrictions on people then it's one step beyond mainstream socialism IMHO

Martial law, was only at a certain period in occupied Poland, the need for martial law also goes to prove that the occupying communist power, was not met with approval by the Polish people. Therefore communism never fully controlled Poland outright. Hence -Socialism-

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Apr 23, 11, 17:39 #13

A sensible thing to do would be to see what Cyrankiewicz did in his 18-year reign. He was a self-confessed communist, having endorsed/sanctioned the formal merger between the Socialist and Communist parties. Perhaps he was just an opportunist like so many others but his iron-fist crushing of rebellion was more typical of communistic hardliners rather than mild socialists who merely strive for progressive social reform and the betterment of the proletariat.

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Apr 23, 11, 17:44 #14

Seanus:

Socialism isn't oppressive in the wider sense. The rich have more taken from them and the poor often have decent social care/provisions. For real oppression, see harsh regimes like the former Bathi one in Iraq.

In that sense so-called first Solidarity was very much socialistic movement. One of the most popular Solidarity slogans in 1980 was Socialism—YES, Its distortions—NO, tho' it is now said that it was the slogan of the PRL's authorities. Glimpse into the past.

warszawskiThreads: 60 Posts: 2,387 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Apr 23, 11, 17:53 #15
Seanus: A sensible thing to do would be to see what Cyrankiewicz did in his 18-year reign. He was a self-confessed communist, He was also the head of the Socialist party at Krakow Jag before WW2.

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Edited by: AdamKadmon Apr 23, 11, 18:04 #16

Seanus:

Perhaps he was just an opportunist like so many others but his iron-fist crushing of rebellion was more typical of communistic hardliners rather than mild socialists who merely strive for progressive social reform and the betterment of the proletariat.

This was a bit more complicated than most people are dare to admit today. Here you can read about direct causes: supperproductive, strike workers and piecework workers were not paid and that is why the strike began. Then as usually there was internal faction struggle for control inside the communist party and there was also Soviet intervention - the Soviet tanks from northern and western Poland were aiming to Warsaw and only the direct threat from China and Mao himself caused Soviets not to attack Warsaw, inside which battalions of workers were waiting and ready to fight against them. Cyrankiewicz and his faction were afraid that the strike was triggered by Soviets to boost the pro-soviet faction inside Polish authorities.

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Apr 23, 11, 18:04 #17

Firstly, he had a hand in the killing of Pilecki, a true Polish hero. He aided the communists, the same fools who have suppressed the records relating to his death for many a year. Secondly, he went with what was on offer in 1935. He bided his time til he could reveal his true colours. Betraying his country in such a fashion really smacks of a communist weasel. He garnered support in order to become PM and part of that involved siding with the communist rats.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,395 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Edited by: pawian Apr 23, 11, 18:05 #18
warszawski: Over the years, the Polish people I speak to never refer to the past as our ' communist past ' they quote 'during Socialism'. Really? Maybe in the past, long ago. Today I never hear people saying during socialism. Za komuny rules!!

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 23, 11, 18:10 #19
My mother-in-law says za komuny. We should also pay heed to George Orwell's classic, 'Animal Farm'. As is so often the case, the reality was quite different from the theory. She liked the full employment aspect but disliked the heavy-handed approach of some of the leaders.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,395 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Apr 23, 11, 18:14 #20
Seanus: She liked the full employment aspect Full employment meant that 4 people did the job that 1 could do. That is why the salaries were so low. And think about efficiency and productivity -they were hopelessly low compared to the West.

warszawskiThreads: 60 Posts: 2,387 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Edited by: warszawski Apr 23, 11, 18:18 #21
pawian: Za komuny rules!! It is not about what sounds good or cool, the discussion is about what is accurate. There are a number of enterprising business's in Poland that promote a communist past, offering visits and cheap memorabilia to gullible tourists. Good luck to them. 'Socialist past' or 'under socialism' doesn't have the same ring to it, now does it.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 23, 11, 18:20 #22
But it meant that 3 could be hungover whilst the 4th laboured away ;) ;) The rotation system seemed to work ;) A guaranteed 2000PLN gave certainty ;) Don't you feel that communism, in that way, brought workers closer together as opposed to the dog-eat-dog model we see now?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Edited by: Seanus Apr 23, 11, 18:32 #23
Buying people with bribes is the sign of a sleekit rat. Undermining your country for your own political gains is the sign of a true creep! Sorry, he was communistic scum and far from being the wisest and most noble politician of those times.

warszawskiThreads: 60 Posts: 2,387 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Apr 23, 11, 18:35 #24
Seanus: My mother-in-law says za komuny My Wife refers to the period as 'during socialism' she was at school with General Jaruzelski's daughter and Grzegorz Przemyk who was murdered during martial law in Warszawa, so she had first hand experience of martial law. My daughter on the other hand has picked up the trendy 'Za komuny'

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 23, 11, 18:37 #25
Oh, my mother-in-law has never aimed to be trendy. Warszawski, what do you understand by the hackneyed phrase, 'collapse of communism'? What changed? It may seem basic to an educated man such as yourself but it serves an interesting purpose.

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Edited by: pawian Apr 23, 11, 18:41 #26

warszawski:

It is not about what sounds good or cool, the discussion is about what is accurate.

You didn`t mention that before.

You said you heard people say sth:

warszawski:

Over the years, the Polish people I speak to never refer to the past as our ' communist past ' they quote 'during Socialism'. Even when you listen to interviews with some of the most respected Poles in current Politics, they ' during Socialism'.

and that was against my experience.

I hope you don`t mind my remark. :):):)

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Edited by: AdamKadmon Apr 23, 11, 18:48 #27

Seanus:

Buying people with bribes is the sign of a sleekit rat. Undermining your country for your own political gains is the sign of a true creep! Sorry, he was communistic scum and far from being the wisest and most noble politician of those times.

My post was kind of a provocation. Not written by me, but by a semi-literate, who tried to disgrace Jan Karski by associating him not only with Cyrankiewicz, of whom he had always a good opionion, but with much more nasty guys like Minc and Berman. Sorry for that unintentional provocation.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 23, 11, 18:55 #28
I figured that much :) We shouldn't judge the likes of Gomułka and Gierek by the stickers they slapped on themselves but by what they did.

warszawskiThreads: 60 Posts: 2,387 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Apr 23, 11, 19:02 #29
pawian: I hope you don`t mind my remark. :):):) No worries. Good to read your comments.

warszawskiThreads: 60 Posts: 2,387 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Apr 23, 11, 19:21 #30
Seanus: 'collapse of communism'? What changed? Seanus, nothing changed we see it going on in the media today, in the middle east. Capitalism needs new frontiers in order to feed itself. The real question we should ask ourselves is, did commusion collapse and die, with the disintegration of the former USSR or did it need time to rebrand itself into the present form of Putinism?

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