Poland's 1945 - 1989 under communism or during socialism?

♂

Edited by: Seanus Apr 23, 11, 23:23 #61

True, B! By saying 'in times of socialism' would be to very strongly imply that Poland never knew it before which just isn't true. They knew it all throughout the Partitions which lasted for a very long time. Lud Polski started it all off. Now, to really get down to the nitty gritty is to look at Lelewel when he sought to justify agrarian Communism and place it under the umbrella of socialism. That was back in the 19th century but the two can be differentiated and indeed should be.

Warsz, so you believe that Poland ceased to be an independent state during communism? I ask any older members here to tell me the significance of Nov 11 during the Soviet occupation. Was it freely celebrated or did the Soviets, in their traditionally brutal way, stamp it out?

♂

Apr 24, 11, 00:05 #62

Seanus:

True, B! By saying 'in times of socialism' would be to very strongly imply that Poland never knew it before which just isn't true. They knew it all throughout the Partitions which lasted for a very long time. Lud Polski started it all off. Now, to really get down to the nitty gritty is to look at Lelewel when he sought to justify agrarian Communism and place it under the umbrella of socialism. That was back in the 19th century but the two can be differentiated and indeed should be.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1905/misc/polish-question.ht m

Seanus:

Warsz, so you believe that Poland ceased to be an independent state during communism?

Now Seanus, all history books tell us that the Baltic states and Poland are independent during the occupation. But do you believe that Poland, was not operating under a system of socialism, during the period of occupation?

♂

Apr 24, 11, 00:17 #63

Wow, a very thorough article which leaves no stone unturned. Thanks :)

Well, that's what I've been asking you, warsz. If you believe that Poland became classless and stateless then that's highly suggestive of communism. The best way forward for us would be to formulate a checklist based on ticks. We may find that there is much more substantive overlap between socialism and communism than most political commentators could ever have imagined. They are seen as synonymous by some Eastern political scientists. That's the impression I get anyway.

We cannot really say Poland was independent if it couldn't freely make decisions without the Soviets' say so.

♂

Apr 26, 11, 01:35 #64

Seanus:

We may find that there is much more substantive overlap between socialism and communism than most political commentators could ever have imagined. They are seen as synonymous by some Eastern political scientists. That's the impression I get anyway.

In the beginning of this thread I asked one question Poland 1945 to 1989 Communism or Socialism. To answer this question correctly we have to understand the following,

What is communism?

Communism is both an economic system that seeks equality among members of society and a political ideology that advocates a classless and stateless society and rejects religion. It is regarded as a more extreme form of socialism.

What is Socialism?

Socialism is commonly regarded as an economic system that seeks to achieve equality among members of society.

Socialism and communism both adhere to the principle that the resources of the economy should be collectively owned by the public and controlled by a central organization. They differ, however, in the management and control of the economy. In socialism, the people themselves decide through communes or popularly elected councils on how the economy should work. This makes socialism a liberal system because majority of the people have a say on how the economy should be run. Communism, on the other hand, controls its economy through a single authoritarian party. It is thus characterized as conservative because the economy functions based on the decisions of a few.

The views of socialism and communism also differ in the distribution of wealth produced by the economy. Socialism supports the view that the goods and services produced should be dispensed based on the productivity of an individual. In contrast, communism believes that the wealth should be shared by the masses based on the needs of the individual.
There are two kinds of properties in socialism: (1) personal property that an individual can own and enjoy; and (2) industrial property that is dedicated for the use of producing society goods. Individuals, for example, can keep their digital cameras but cannot retain a factory that produces digital cameras. While personal properties can be kept, socialists make sure, however, that no private property will be used as an instrument for oppression and exploitation. In comparison, communism treats all goods and services as public property to be used and enjoyed by the entire populace.

Finally, socialism and communism differ in their views on capitalism. Socialists regard capitalism as a threat to equality and public interest. They believe, however, that there is no need to eliminate the capitalist class because it can be used as a good instrument in the transition to socialism as long as it is properly controlled. Socialists also believe that capitalism can exist in a socialist state and vice versa. From the point of view of the communists, capitalism must to be destroyed totally in order to give way to a classless society.

Summary:

1. Socialism is an economic system while communism is both an economic and political system. 
2. In socialism, the resources of the economy are managed and controlled by the people themselves through communes or councils while in communism, management and control rest on a few people in a single authoritarian party. 
3. Socialists distribute wealth to the people based on an individual's productive efforts while communists farm out wealth based on an individual's needs. 
4. Socialists can own personal properties while communists can not. 
5. Socialism allows capitalism to exist in its midst while communism seeks to get rid of capitalist

Based on the above we can conclude that it is correct to use both Socialism and Communism to describe the period in question. The economic system of Poland was socialism, although the ruling Government of Poland was communist, ruled directly from Moscow. Poland during this period should NOT be considered as a full communist state, like Russia, China, North Korea or Cuba. Poland was a socialist state.

♂

Apr 26, 11, 02:26 #65

warszawski:

Poland was a socialist state.

That's what the commies wanted it to be, or atleast the ones ruling Poland after ww2 to 1989
The commies allways said "socialism" rather then communism, that's why Ironside reacted as he did.

warszawski:

1. Socialism is an economic system while communism is both an economic and political system. 

Your very very wrong, their both ideologies. What economic/political system they accept or have been seen in use is an different matter :)

warszawski:

2. In socialism, the resources of the economy are managed and controlled by the people themselves through communes or councils while in communism, management and control rest on a few people in a single authoritarian party. 

= socialism is decentralized while communism is cetralized

warszawski:

3. Socialists distribute wealth to the people based on an individual's productive efforts while communists farm out wealth based on an individual's needs. 

productive effots?! Socialists give out money to anyone so that there won't be an base of poor people wanting an coup de etat or revolution...

While commies steal from anyone just so they build up their army and prepare to share their ideology

warszawski:

4. Socialists can own personal properties while communists can not. 

communists in power or communists in general?

warszawski:

5. Socialism allows capitalism to exist in its midst while communism seeks to get rid of capitalist

That depends on the countries party and their economic policy, Socialists and communists can have a variety of policies: Most common is planned economy (communists) and state capitalism. If we look at Scandinavia they use an intervention policy.

warszawski:

5. Socialism allows capitalism to exist in its midst while communism seeks to get rid of capitalist

Again depends on the socialists, but yes communists are no fans of capitalists

♂

Edited by: warszawski Apr 26, 11, 10:41 #66

Mr Grunwald:

That's what the commies wanted it to be, or atleast the ones ruling Poland after ww2 to 1989
The commies allways said "socialism" rather then communism, that's why Ironside reacted as he did.

Polish Finance Minister Jan Vincent-Rostowski quote at 6min 16 secs " From socialism to market economy" So he is a communist is he?

Ironside reacted in the way he did, because he imagines communist coming out of all corners in PL.

Mr Grunwald:

Your very very wrong, their both ideologies. What economic/political system they accept or have been seen in use is an different matter :)

Socialism is an Economic system, not an ideology

Mr Grunwald:

While commies steal from anyone just so they build up their army and prepare to share their ideology

Agreed on this point

Mr Grunwald:

communists in power or communists in general?

I am talking about the principal of ownership of property during socialism. In communism you are not allowed to own property, but I am sure, the will,shows the way.

Mr Grunwald:

but yes communists are no fans of capitalists

Agreed on this point.

MEMBER ♀

Apr 26, 11, 11:15 #67

warszawski:

Over the years, the Polish people I speak to never refer to the past as our ' communist past ' they quote 'during Socialism'. Even when you listen to interviews with some of the most respected Poles in current Politics, they ' during Socialism'. Here on PF it is common to talk about the Communist past of Poland, although there is no usage of ' during Socialism '. It would be interesting to hear your views on this point.

I guess it is the same with all ex socialist countries. We were told that we live in socialism and that one day perhaps we will evolve as a society and reach communism like you described. So it was presented as a hardly achievable ideal.

The word communism got devilish connotation (in the West) and it evokes only associations of totalitarian, oppressive regimes and I think it is deliberately used for ex East block past to further devalue the systems that existed, negating few of their good sides.

The winner abused the power to define what that was and attach only negative meanings to it.

It wasn't communism for us. For the West it was.

stop the earth i want to get off

♂

Edited by: warszawski Apr 26, 11, 11:17 #68

Natasa:

I guess it is the same with all ex socialist countries. We were told that we live in socialism and that one day perhaps we will evolve as a society and reach communism like you described. So it was presented as a hardly achievable ideal.

The word communism got devilish connotation (in the West) and it evokes only associations of totalitarian, oppressive regimes and I think it is deliberately used for ex East block past to further devalue the systems that existed, negating few of their good sides.

The winner abused the power to define what that was and attach only negative meanings to it.

It wasn't communism for us. For the West it was.

Natasa, at last someone with an understanding.

♂

Apr 26, 11, 11:43 #69

Seanus:

True, B! By saying 'in times of socialism' would be to very strongly imply that Poland never knew it before which just isn't true.

Under Communist regimes international mobility was discouraged and borders were sealed. The Polish government, as other governments in the Soviet block, tolerated work by teams of workers on contract jobs implemented by national companies in foreign countries. In the 1960s and 1970s the outflow of emigrants from Poland was continued. but on a small scale . The Communist government did not accept the phenomenon of emigration and very seldom gave a permit to leave the country. The great outflow started at the end of 1980s.

The years between 1978 and 1990 were the period of arrival of the third inflow of Polish immigrants to the United States called the "Solidarity Emigration." Those immigrants had a different background and orientation towards their homeland, the country of new settlement, and American Polonia. During these years the Solidarity union and democratic opposition developed. America's Polonia helped and supported the actions of the independence movement in Poland These new realities changed and reoriented Polonia's activities, because the needs of the homeland had changed.

Former members of the Solidarity Union entered the United States under refugee quotas and as non-quota immigrants. These so-called political immigrants turned out to be about 80% economic immigrants. Real political immigrants during Poland's martial law were estimated on 20% of the total emigration. They obtained only a permit to leave the country without the right to come back.

Therefore, it is understandable that the children of these immigrants have been raised to detest all things related to the communist government in Poland.

POLAND . The Unofficial Guide	Unanswered \| Archives
POLAND . The Unofficial Guide	Poland for Expats and Tourists	Witamy, Guest \| PF Members \| Gold Members

Home \| Unanswered \| Archives \| Random \| Statistics	Time in Poland: 18:30 / May 26
About Us \| Contact Us \| Rules, Privacy \| Poland Advertising	© 2005-12 PolishForums.com