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Pole who burned himself to protest the 1968 Soviet invasion


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David_18Threads: 111
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Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: David_18  Aug 20, 10, 22:16    #1
Ryszard Siwiec, a Polish teacher and former World War II-era Home Army soldier, who, protesting against the Soviet-led aggression in which his country participated, set himself on fire in front of tens of thousands of people. died four days after his self-immolation in September 1968 at a stadium in Warsaw during a propaganda festival.

1968 the Warsaw Pact countries invaded Czechoslovakia on Soviet orders to put an end to the Prague Spring, Other Soviet-bloc armed forces, including Poland’s military, were also forced by their Soviet masters to participate in the invasion.

Ryszard Siwiec sets himself on fire in front of tens of thousands of people

A monument has been unveiled in Prague to the Polish hero

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5930605,00.html
AmathystThreads: 30
Posts: 3,898
Joined: Nov 10, 06 Pictures: 1 ♀ 		 Aug 20, 10, 22:21    #2
And his actions solved what? We dont do martyrs in the west..I feel for his family more than I do for him...
David_18Threads: 111
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Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 20, 10, 22:38    #3
Amathyst:
And his actions solved what?


Like the czech priest said in the article

"[His death] was a symbol, it was an offering for freedom."

Amathyst:
We dont do martyrs in the west..

Europe had many people in the past 100 years that set them self in fire in protest.


Here is even a list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_self-immolations

People seems to set them self in fire for the most wierdest reasons xD

The Swed Per Axel Arosenius
After a dispute with the Swedish taxation authorities on March 21 1981, Per Axel Arosenius protested by setting himself on fire outside their office in Nacka. He died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. He was 60 years old.

Amathyst:
I feel for his family more than I do for him

Yea he was a father of 5 children.
dtaylor5632Threads: 48
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Joined: May 2, 09 Pictures: 3 ♂ 		 Aug 20, 10, 22:40    #4
Someone is trying tooooo hard to be a Pole ;)
David_18Threads: 111
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Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 20, 10, 22:44    #5
dtaylor5632:
Someone is trying tooooo hard to be a Pole ;)

Someone is trying toooo hard to be funny ;)
dtaylor5632Threads: 48
Posts: 4,348
Joined: May 2, 09 Pictures: 3 ♂ 		 Aug 20, 10, 22:46    #6
David_18:
Someone is trying toooo hard to be funny ;)

Talking shite doesnt always mean funny ;)
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Aug 20, 10, 22:47    #7
David_18:

Like the czech priest said in the article

"[His death] was a symbol, it was an offering for freedom."


I don't agree with that...after all he removed himself from the struggle for freedom.
One enemy less to watch for the NKVD.

But I can't even fathom what it needs to decide to burn one self to death...the most excruciating painful death I think. Should I respect him for that? I can't help it but I do...
AmathystThreads: 30
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Joined: Nov 10, 06 Pictures: 1 ♀ 		Edited by: Amathyst  Aug 20, 10, 22:50    #8
David_18:
"[His death] was a symbol, it was an offering for freedom."


No it wasnt..there are ways in a civilised world of achieving things...Indian girls in villages married off to abusive men resort to this..not grown educated men in Europe...Surely you have to agree with me?
David_18Threads: 111
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Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: David_18  Aug 20, 10, 22:52    #9
Bratwurst Boy:
I don't agree with that...after all he removed himself from the struggle for freedom.
One enemy less to watch for the NKVD.


Well he inspired 4-5 people to do the same thing for the "cause"

Jan Palach being one of them.

Bratwurst Boy:
But I can't even fathom what it needs to decide to burn one self to death...the most excruciating painful death I think. Should I respect him for that? I can't help but I do...


Yea it's really insane, i seriously can't even imagine the pain.

Amathyst:
No it wasnt..there are ways in a civilised world of achieving things...Indian girls in villages married off to abusive men resort to this..not grown educated men in Europe...Surely you have to agree with me?


Yes indeed but still people in europe do.

I guess it's the most powerfull way to show your anger/disappointment. It's like "I don't like what you just did so now im gonna kill myself in the most F*** up way and the world will blame it on you"
wildroverThreads: 180
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Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 20, 10, 23:03    #10
Bratwurst Boy:
the most excruciating painful death I think


I was told be a racing driver friend that burning is not actually that painfull...usually the screams you hear are those of panic , not pain...

As the nerve endings are burnt your ability to feel pain is lost....

If you survive , its the months of skin grafts that are very very painfull....
PaulinaThreads: 2
Posts: 561
Joined: Jan 31, 08 ♀ 		 Aug 20, 10, 23:06    #11
Amathyst:
No it wasnt..there are ways in a civilised world of achieving things...Indian girls in villages married off to abusive men resort to this..not grown educated men in Europe...Surely you have to agree with me?

Surely, only uncivilised and uneducated barbarians like Poles, Indians and Vietnamese burn themselves to death in protest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c
convexThreads: 47
Posts: 7,189
Joined: Nov 25, 09 Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Aug 20, 10, 23:16    #12
David_18:
1968 the Warsaw Pact countries invaded Czechoslovakia on Soviet orders to put an end to the Prague Spring, Other Soviet-bloc armed forces, including Poland’s military, were also forced by their Soviet masters to participate in the invasion.

Like the Romanians were forced? Albanians? Some countries stood up, some went along for the ride. Poland was unfortunately one of the latter.
AmathystThreads: 30
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Joined: Nov 10, 06 Pictures: 1 ♀ 		Edited by: Amathyst  Aug 20, 10, 23:25    #13
David_18:
Yes indeed but still people in europe do.


With all due respect, Im an avid reader of the news and not in the last 20 years has any English, Welsh or Scottish person set fire to themsevles in prostest..so..I strongly disagree with you..we do not set fire to ourselves..Its not something Europeans do..

Paulina:
Surely, only uncivilised and uneducated barbarians like Poles, Indians and Vietnamese burn themselves to death in protest:


I wasnt suggesting that all that did this were uncivilised..I was however saying in a civilised society it isnt necessary..agian..I will say..Im sure you would agree with this?
dtaylor5632Threads: 48
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Joined: May 2, 09 Pictures: 3 ♂ 		 Aug 20, 10, 23:29    #14
Amathyst:
Its not something Europeans do..

It's not something that anyone would do, regardless of nationality.
David_18Threads: 111
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Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 20, 10, 23:32    #15
Amathyst:
With all due respect, Im an avid reader of the news and not in the last 20 years has any English, Welsh or Scottish person set fire to themsevles in prostest..so..I strongly disagree with you..we do not set fire to ourselves..Its not something Europeans do..

Did you even check my link?

Plenty of people in Europe set them self in fire the past 20 years.

1995 Reinhold Elstner from Germany
1998 Alfredo Ormando from Italy
2006 Eleftheriya Fortulaki from Greece
2007 Uddhav Bhandari UK
1993 Graham Bamford UK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_self-immolations

Indeed it's sick and twisted.
dtaylor5632Threads: 48
Posts: 4,348
Joined: May 2, 09 Pictures: 3 ♂ 		 Aug 20, 10, 23:34    #16
David_18:
1995 Reinhold Elstner from Germany
1998 Alfredo Ormando from Italy
2006 Eleftheriya Fortulaki from Greece
2007 Uddhav Bhandari UK
1993 Graham Bamford UK

Hardly plenty, How many people live in Europe?
AmathystThreads: 30
Posts: 3,898
Joined: Nov 10, 06 Pictures: 1 ♀ 		 Aug 20, 10, 23:35    #17
dtaylor5632:
It's not something that anyone would do, regardless of nationality


Dave, Desparation that leads to these acts is a thing you and I have no idea about..so we cant comment..
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,160
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 20, 10, 23:35    #18
He was doing really well. Some would say that he was on fire that day ;)

On a more serious note, RIP. Foreigners are highly disingenuous when it comes to perceiving communist Poland. They forget time and again that it was imposed and, dispute me if you will, but a fair bit at the hands of those 2 meddling powers, America and Britain. If they care not to show insight, please care not to comment at all.
enderThreads: 13
Posts: 528
Joined: Nov 7, 09 ♂ 		 Aug 20, 10, 23:36    #19
Amathyst:
No it wasnt..there are ways in a civilised world of achieving things

try Mr. Graham Bamford
April 29, 1993 Graham Bamford UK Bosnian war particularly the Ahmiæi massacre
PaulinaThreads: 2
Posts: 561
Joined: Jan 31, 08 ♀ 		Edited by: Paulina  Aug 20, 10, 23:43    #20
Amathyst:
I wasnt suggesting that all that did this were uncivilised..I was however saying in a civilised society it isnt necessary..agian..I will say..Im sure you would agree with this?

I would rather say that in a democratic society it isn't necessary. In a totalitarian regime there are no means of protest, so people become desperate. There's no free media, there is censorship so you can't just go to a TV station and speak your mind.
The world often don't care much about what's going on in countries where there's some kind of regime. Usually something shocking must happen to draw attention, like in the case of that Vietnamese monk.
So, no, I disagree - it isn't about "civilised society".
David_18Threads: 111
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Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 20, 10, 23:47    #21
dtaylor5632:
Hardly plenty, How many people live in Europe?

Indeed it's not many, and we should be happy that this dosen't occur in Europe everyday. But we should not deny it and say that this ain't occur in Europe just cuz we are "civilized".
BarneyThreads: 14
Posts: 1,469
Joined: May 26, 08 Pictures: 3 ♂ 		 Aug 20, 10, 23:51    #22
David_18:
Other Soviet-bloc armed forces, including Poland’s military, were also forced by their Soviet masters to participate in the invasion.

There is an interesting discussion Polish historical myths - to break or not to break them?about this.

Amathyst:
I feel for his family more than I do for him

Yes, the poor guy is dead and his family have to struggle to survive, what good is a Wiki page to them?

The Christian idea of blood sacrifice has been used in the west many times, after all Christ started it.


Paulina:
There's no free media, there is censorship so you can't just go to a TV station and speak your mind.

That also existed in the west.
dtaylor5632Threads: 48
Posts: 4,348
Joined: May 2, 09 Pictures: 3 ♂ 		 Aug 20, 10, 23:51    #23
David_18:
Indeed it's not many, and we should be happy that this dosen't occur in Europe everyday. But we should not deny it and say that this ain't occur in Europe just cuz we are "civilized".

Id say it happens in the same rate no matter what country you go to, where ever in the world.
SeanBMThreads: 41
Posts: 8,647
Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: SeanBM  Aug 20, 10, 23:59    #24
Paulina:
I would rather say that in a democratic society it isn't necessary. In a totalitarian regime there are no means of protest, so people become desperate. There's no free media, there is censorship so you can't just go to a TV station and speak your mind.
The world often don't care much about what's going on in countries where there's some kind of regime. Usually something shocking must happen to draw attention, like in the case of that Vietnamese monk.
So, no, I disagree - it isn't about "civilised society".

I agree with your comment.

Walentego Badlaka

dtaylor5632:
Id say it happens in the same rate no matter what country you go to, where ever in the world.

Despite what WildRover was told about burning to death, it must be a nasty affair and as sometimes this was the ONLY means of protest (despite the lack of coverage), if nothing else it is a statement of how desperate people were.
PaulinaThreads: 2
Posts: 561
Joined: Jan 31, 08 ♀ 		Edited by: Paulina  Aug 21, 10, 00:00    #25
Barney:
That also existed in the west.

But I suspect that was mainly in the first part of the 20th century when the media weren't as powerful and common as in the second half?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_self-immolations
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,160
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 00:03    #26
Some people clearly got overheated that day ;) ;)

Well done to the man! Sometimes fighting is the only way as diplomacy was not on the cards then.
wildroverThreads: 180
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Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 00:30    #27
SeanBM:
Despite what WildRover was told about burning to death, it must be a nasty affair and as sometimes this was the ONLY means of protest (despite the lack of coverage), if nothing else it is a statement of how desperate people were.


It certainly is not a death i would choose , but three people who were very badly burned told me that it does not hurt that much..

The first was my brother in laws father who was one of the guinea pig club , the only surviving member of a Lancaster bomber that crashed on take off due to sabotage it seems..a full fuel and bomb load ensured it was a very intense fire

The second was a friend of mine trapped in a racing car that lit up in Germany...He said he felt fear , even panic , but no pain , and did not realise he had actually been burnt untill somebody told him...

The third was the brother of a friend , a welsh guardsman who was burnt when the Sir gallahad was hit by an Argentine missile...he told me he could see his flesh falling off , and smell it burning...but he felt no pain...

Setting yourself on fire is a horrific spectacle , one that is sure to make headlines , and this is the reason it is chosen... We all saw the monk that lit himself on fire in protest at the Vietnam war , and this went a long way towards turning the American public against the war..Once they had lost public support , the war was lost...

A few people set themselves on fire to protest against Soviet oppression , and this led to mass protests that most likely helped to end this oppression...

When it comes to drawing attention to your cause , burning yourself is very very effective..
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Aug 21, 10, 00:38    #28
wildrover:
When it comes to drawing attention to your cause , burning yourself is very very effective..


Hmmm...it's nothing I could claim knowing the whole truth about but we all know that the public generally has the attention span of a fruit fly.
Already the next day something else makes the headlines...and the further away the public is the quicker they forget.

I doubt that the brave people who gave the highest what they could, they own lives, did alot to help their case.
As there is hard and dirty and dangerous groundwork needed for years and years, not the big but short time shows.
The soviet empire didn't fall because of the few people who burnt themselves....and that the west (if he did care) was sympathetic to their cause didn't help the people behind the iron curtain one yota...
Moscow didn't care and Washington could do nothing...so what was achieved?

Am I a cynic now?
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Aug 21, 10, 00:44    #29
Amathyst:
And his actions solved what? We dont do martyrs in the west..

Yeah you do, a lot.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,160
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 21, 10, 00:45    #30
The feminists were an example, Am. Look at the Pankhursts who threw themselves under horses etc.
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