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Poles fighting for independence against Russia relied on the Catholic Church?


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hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
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Edited by: hague1cmaeron  Aug 6, 11, 08:25    #1
On a scale of very ignorant to supremely ignorant how would rate this "acclaimed" "historian's" remark in a recent lecture:

Cannadine: "It does seem clear that there were feelings of collective solidarity and national identity in certain parts of eastern Europe.....but elsewhere it is not so clear in Poland for example, those people fighting for independence against Russia relied heavily on the patronage of the Catholic Church and on the support of the native born Pope John Paul II"

So what do you think, how ignorant is this man who calls himself a so called historian?

this is the clip, start at 54: http://ideas.unimelb.edu.au/events/keynote-the-construction-of-nationa l-identities

For this howler I would be quite happy to take his position of historian in Princeton

gumishuThreads: 17
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 Aug 6, 11, 08:29    #2
maybe he is just Jewish
gumishuThreads: 17
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 Aug 6, 11, 09:41    #3
no he is not I guess - and actually he only briefly mentions this Polish question and raises a valid issue -
hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
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Edited by: hague1cmaeron  Aug 6, 11, 11:32    #4
no he is not I guess - and actually he only briefly mentions this Polish question and raises a valid issue -

Would you care to explain? I cannot think of another nation at the time fighting for its independence with a national identity stronger than the Poles-the best manifestation of this is the solidarity movement, unparalleled anywhere else. The Pope himself was viewed by many Poles as a patriot, and come to think of it, I cannot think of any other nation more Russophobic than Poland. Not knowing such basic knowledge, you have to seriously question Cannadine's credentials as a serious historian. I fear his knowledge is strictly limited to the western side of the continent, a very good illustration of the fact that although the physical dividing barrier no longer exists, the mental barrier is alive and well in some individuals.
WroclawThreads: 77
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 Aug 6, 11, 16:49    #5

So what do you think, how ignorant is this man who calls himself a so called historian?


i wasn't here for the russian period, but i've been here for the free period since it started. and i do know that the people here did put faith in the words of the church. the people got a little wiser when the church told them who to vote for in following elections. so i do believe the church offered guidance and the people took it. isn't it part of the reason Polish people revere JPII.
shinga  Aug 6, 11, 20:02    #6
people got a little wiser when the church told them who to vote


this is an oxymoron, lol
hague1cmaeronThreads: 21
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Edited by: hague1cmaeron  Aug 7, 11, 01:28    #7
i wasn't here for the russian period, but i've been here for the free period since it started. and i do know that the people here did put faith in the words of the church. the people got a little wiser when the church told them who to vote for in following elections. so i do believe the church offered guidance and the people took it. isn't it part of the reason Polish people revere JPII.

This has nothing to do with the church per se, he implies that Poles had no national identity, which is just completely opposite to the actual fact, The Poles had and still have one of the strongest national identities on the continent. The ridiculousness of his proposition is revealed when he argues that countries like Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia have had strong national identities-which is just plain laughable if you consider the very short existence of Latvia and Estonia and the multi ethnic composition of Lithuania, in contrast to the the long history and homogeneity of Poland. There is reason why it happened in Poland first and not in the other countries.

It is quite amusing seeing someone lecture about national identity whilst coming from the UK, or should I say the DK-short for disunited kingdom.

I've heard the Poles being accused of being too nationalistic, but never have I heard them being described as indifferent to the idea of Polishness. Let's face it the guy just does not cut the mustard as a serious European historian-he should give Norman Davies a call.



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