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When will you Poles give back German land and the cities which you robbed?

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 10, 22:09 #241

pawian:

Because they are German or pretend to be ones. The bald guy says: Mein Gott! No Pole says things like that, even heavily drunk! :):):):):)

They are Silesians! Silesians had been a precious mix...Silesia was the most advanced country compared to the more agraraian east... heavily industrialized with good infrastructure.
The people had been a mix of Germans, Czechs, Poles...german work ethic prevailed...hence the success of Silesia before it fell to Poland and many Silesians got expelled.

plk123:

are Poles not germans.. "their" language is really just polish dialect.. just like lemko or góralski.

Silesian is heavily german influenced (or it was). Mixed as the people had been. I understand if they feel different to the "ordinary" peasant Poles from further East....

Of course the whole silesian history and the german heritage was a "no no" for decades, a taboo in polish schools...but as I said before and the links I brought show that too...Poles re-discover their german heritage..so does Silesia! :)

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Edited by: plk123 Aug 30, 10, 22:21 #242

Bratwurst Boy:

I understand if they feel different to the "ordinary" peasant Poles from further East....

they don't feel different at all.. their language is not german.. very much PLish dialect, like i said.. can you understand anything they said? click that silesia radio link.. can you understand any of the writing?

Bratwurst Boy:

.Poles re-discover their german heritage..so does Silesia! :)

the funny thing is that now you're in denial.. the truth is:

Bratwurst Boy:

My greatparents spoke a silesian german dialect too...it died out with them sadly! :(

that you're probably actually more polish then german.. sorry bud.. i know this news has to be hard for you to take.. but keep hanging around here, brother kraut, we'll change you into bigos yet. ;) :D :D

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 10, 22:30 #243

plk123:

Since Million of real Silesians left and where substituted by eastern Poles and 50 years of skewed commie education I'm pleasantly surprised some still do remember....

plk123:

Don't play daft...even in this thread I counted myself openly as german-silesian...descendants from real Silesians. That many parts of my family stem from several towns and villages in lower Silesia.
That doesn't make me polish even if you would wish it so...;)

You really seem to have a hard time accepting Silesians and Silesians past as what they were, why is that???

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Edited by: plk123 Aug 30, 10, 22:32 #244

Bratwurst Boy:

Since Million of real Silesians left and where substituted by eastern Poles and 50 years of skewed commie education I'm pleasantly surprised some still do remember....

ok delph... so now because poles live there, the silesian language all of a sudden changed to polish dialect? niiice. lol it's that last statement of mine that got you worried, isn't it? ;) :D

Bratwurst Boy:

You really seem to have a hard time accepting Silesians and Silesians past as what they were, why is that???

not at all.. i see it for what it is. not some wishful thinking that it's more german then anything.. :)

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 10, 22:38 #245

plk123:

ok delph... so now because poles live there, the silesian language all of a sudden changed to polish dialect? niiice. lol it's that last statement of mine that got you worried, isn't it? ;) :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia

Yes, everything what pointed to a non-polish history was scratched out of polish history books, out of polish life for decades.
The danger that Germans would have really have a claim to these lands could not be supported at all costs.
You are the product of this brainwashing.

Gladly...you are from yesterday and more and more people are interested in the true history! :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_language

Until 1945 Silesian was also spoken in enclaves in Lower Silesia, as Lower Silesian language was spoken by the ethnic German majority population of that region at the time.

Silesian became "polish" by force after 1945...that means the language and the land. It was not polish before, neither the language nor the land. It's called "polonization"!

plk123:

not at all.. i see it for what it is. not some wishful thinking that it's more german then anything.. :)

Oh boy...just inform yourself better...it's all there in the open for you to read about silesian history! rolls eyes

Look what I found! :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_Wikipedia

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Aug 30, 10, 22:46 #246

BB, the League of Nations ruled on it as far back as 1921. They denied you access to most of the coalfields and, well, war yields such results. Polonization?? The majority of Germans voted for Hitler and there must be those that suffer as a result. It's analogous to the situation of Serbs in Bosnia. They got murdered by the locals there. However, after WWI, it happened by official authorities recognising the change. If you can accept Kosovo's independence, you can accept that.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 10, 22:47 #247
Seanus: If you can accept Kosovo's independence, you can accept that. Erm...when did I say ever otherwise Seanie? Please quote me.... The much cherished, successfull, colorful, precious Silesia is long gone ...most people living there now are just Poles. I don't want that back, sorry! ;)

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Aug 30, 10, 22:47 #248

Bratwurst Boy:

Silesian became "polish" by force after 1945...that means the language and the land. It was not polish before, neither the language nor the land. It's called "polonization"!

the language got polonized? i thought it was surpressed? which is it? can't really be both.

Bratwurst Boy:

You are the product of this brainwashing.

not at all.. just because germans took it from PL (or slavs) for a few centuries, doesn't make it german. or is it "once german, always german"? like the russkies and the chinese?

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 10, 22:49 #249

plk123:

the language got polonized? i thought it was surpressed? which is it? can't really be both.

You are playing dumb now, aren't you? ;)
How do you think polonizing works? Or Germanizing....or any other "-izing".
You opress the language, the customs, people change their names to not be discriminated, become more polish than the real Poles to avoid punishments...or just leave.
Millions of Silesians left for Germany during the decades...

Just read some more and inform yourself....you have alot of catching up to do.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07 ♂	Edited by: plk123 Aug 30, 10, 22:50 #250
Bratwurst Boy: You are playing dumb now, aren't you? ;) Just read some more and inform yourself....you have alot of catching up to do. who is playing dumb and who needs to catch up? see below bud. Bratwurst Boy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_language you must not have read your own link; thanks for proving i am right once again: Slavic language spoken in the region of Silesia.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 10, 22:53 #251

plk123:

you must not have read your own link; thanks for proving i am right once again:

ROFL, my greatparents surely did not speak something slavic...so don't do the people in the video! ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Silesian_language

Lower Silesian language (Lower Silesian: Schläsch), is a German dialect spoken in Lower Silesia. Today, the area is mainly in southwestern Poland, but as well as in northeastern Czech Republic and in eastern Germany. The group of dialects is nearly extinct.

This language is not to be confused with Silesian language, a Slavic dialect spoken today by the majority of inhabitants

...
The German Silesian dialect is part of the East Central German language area with some West Slavic influences. After the expulsion of the Germans from Silesia, German Silesian culture and language nearly died out when most of Silesia became part of Poland in 1945. After World War II, Polish authorities banned the use of the German language altogethe

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 30, 10, 22:54 #252
Ah well, there is interaction as it stands. I was chatting to a Polish guy who has lived a lot of his life in Dusseldorf. He doesn't feel the need to win anything back. The right of passage and right to own land are enough :)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 10, 22:55 #253
Seanus: The right of passage and right to own land are enough :) My saying :) And as I said...that isn't the Silesia of old anymore anyhow... plk123: who is playing dumb and who needs to catch up? see below bud. You are denying german history in western Poland alltogether...you are an ignorant dumb, that's all!

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07 ♂	Edited by: plk123 Aug 30, 10, 22:57 #254
Bratwurst Boy: ROFL, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Silesian_language yet, you're the one who supplied the other link too.. are you slipping? ;)

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Edited by: Trevek Aug 30, 10, 22:58 #255

plk123:

the language got polonized?

You can't really 'polonize' a language if it isn't slavonic. A culture, yes, but to polonize the language, if it isn't already slavonic, would not work.

Bratwurst Boy:

You opress the language, the customs, people change their names to not be discriminated, become more polish than the real Poles to avoid punishments...or just leave.
Millions of Silesians left for Germany during the decades...

I think that was the idea. There was a phrase about 'not wanting to have German meat covered by Polish gravy.'

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07 ♂	Aug 30, 10, 22:59 #256
Bratwurst Boy: You are denying german history in western Poland alltogether...you are an ignorant dumb, that's all! nope, szczecin was really never polish until after ww2. :)

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 10, 23:00 #257

plk123:

yet, you're the one who supplied the other link.. are you slipping? ;)

Somehow you really have problems to understand the chain of events:

After World War II, Polish authorities banned the use of the German language altogether

Trevek:

A culture, yes, but to polonize the language, if it isn't already slavonic, would not work.

You don't need to polonize a language, only the people speaking it! Terrorize one generation into Poles and you make sure the next generation grows up as Poles, speaking polish....there is nothing new in that...
Happened on both sides during the centuries!

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Aug 30, 10, 23:00 #258
Let the generation representatives do their thing. I know Poles in Lower Silesia with German passports and they are easy to get due to old ties. They tend to want to learn German and interact with Germans. There is relative harmony :)

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 10, 23:05 #259

Seanus:

There is relative harmony :)

That's why I see now the silesian future more rosy...alot of Germans are investing there...not only because it's so near to Germany but because of old family ties and maybe they are really different to other Poles from other parts of the country, who knows.

But I don't know how such a separation movement should work...to many "polish Poles" are living there now...they have nothing to do with the Silesians of old or the silesian culture and customs.

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Aug 30, 10, 23:19 #260

Bratwurst Boy:

Silesian became "polish" by force after 1945...that means the language and the land. It was not polish before, neither the language nor the land. It's called "polonization"!

Hmm, I think you are wrong. After all, there were 3 Uprisings against Germans in Silesia.

My post from another thread:
A large part of Silesia was returned to Poland after 3 Uprisings organised by Silesians against German rule of terror and injustice, in 1919-1921.

The Silesian Uprisings (German: Aufstände in Oberschlesien; Polish: Powstania śląskie) were a series of three armed uprisings of the Poles and Polish Silesians of Upper Silesia, from 1919–1921, against German rule; the resistance hoped to break away from Germany in order to join the Second Polish Republic, which had been established in the wake of World War I. In the latter-day history of Poland after World War II, the insurrections were celebrated as centrepieces of national pride.

Read complete history:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_Uprisings

The second Uprising was shown in a beautiful film The Salt of the Black Soil. It is available on Youtube in 10 parts:
Part 7 shows some heavy street fighting at 4.00:

Watch it to the end because there is a love scene with a Polish flag in the background.

ZedThreads: - Posts: 304 Joined: May 25, 10 ♂	Aug 30, 10, 23:22 #261
Bratwurst: if I ever wanted to regain Lwów for Poland I would employ you. :-)

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 10, 23:24 #262

pawian:

After all, there were 3 Uprisings against Germans in Silesia.

The uprisings where a tool by Warsaw to get more of the cake they already got with the help of the Treaty of Versailles.

After all Silesia was the richest region, most industrial developed with rich coal fields...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia#History

...
After World War I, Upper Silesia was contested by Germany and the newly-independent Second Polish Republic.

The League of Nations organized a plebiscite to decide the issue in 1921, whose results (disputed by Poland) were skewed by the German population and therefore wished to remain part of Germany.

Following the third Silesian Uprising (1921), however, the easternmost portion of Upper Silesia (including Katowice), with a majority ethnic Polish population, was finally awarded back to Poland, where it formed the Autonomous Silesian Voivodeship.
The Prussian Province of Silesia within Germany was divided into the Provinces of Lower Silesia and Upper Silesia. Meanwhile Austrian Silesia, the small portion of Silesia retained by Austria after the Silesian Wars, was mostly awarded to the new Czechoslovakia (becoming known as Czech Silesia), although most of Cieszyn and territory to the east of it went to Poland (see Zaolzie).

"Skewed by the german population" my arse! Yeah....they voted overwhelmingly for staying in Germany...:)

But there really was a difference between upper and lower Silesia...upper Silesia more polish and lower Silesia being nearly totally german.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Silesia_plebiscite

...
The most discussed of these three plebiscites in the German East was the one in Upper Silesia, since the region was one of Germany's principal industrial centers.
The most important economic asset was the enormous coal-mining industry and its ancillary businesses, but the area yielded iron, zinc, and lead as well.

The "Industrial Triangle" on the eastern side of the plebiscite zone—between the cities then called Beuthen, Kattowitz, and Gleiwitz—was the heart of this large industrial complex. The Upper Silesia plebiscite was therefore a plebiscite for self-determination of Upper Silesia required by the Treaty of Versailles.

Both Germany and Poland valued this region not only for reasons of national feeling, but for its economic importance as well.

There were 1,186,758 votes cast in an area inhabited by 2,073,663 persons.[4] It resulted in 717,122 votes being cast for Germany and 483,514 for Poland.
The towns and most of the villages in the plebiscite territory gave German majorities. However, the districts of Pless (Pszczyna) and Rybnik in the southeast, as well as Tarnowitz (Tarnowskie Góry) in the east and Tost-Gleiwitz (Gliwice) in the interior showed considerable Polish majorities, while in Lublinitz (Lubliniec) and Groß Strehlitz (Strzelce Opolskie) the votes cast on either side were practically equal.
All the districts of the industrial zone in a narrower sense - Beuthen (Bytom), Hindenburg (Zabrze), Kattowitz (Katowice), and Königshütte (Chorzów) - had slight German majorities, though in Beuthen and Kattowitz this was due entirely to the town vote (four fifth in Kattowitz compared to an overall 60%).[5] Many country communes of Upper Silesia had given Polish majorities.

Overall, however, the Germans won the vote by a measure of 60% to 40%.

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Edited by: plk123 Aug 30, 10, 23:28 #263

Bratwurst Boy:

After World War II, Polish authorities banned the use of the German language altogether

but that's not silesian.. it's not me who is having comprehension problems.

Bratwurst Boy:

Terrorize one generation into Poles and you make sure the next generation grows up as Poles, speaking polish....there is nothing new in that...

but they aren't speaking polish but silesian.

Bratwurst Boy:

they voted overwhelmingly for staying in Germany...:)

because the germans monkeyed with the votes.. you even said that yourself earlier.. thus it didn't really count..

lower silesia was more german because you guys germanized it. ;P :D

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 10, 23:32 #264

Zed:

Bratwurst: if I ever wanted to regain Lwów for Poland I would employ you. :-)

Nah...my russian is rusty at best! :)

plk123:

lower silesia was more german because you guys germanized it. ;P :D

I don't remember any mass expellations of millions of Poles...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia#History

And we were there first! ;)

Silesia has been inhabited from time immemorial by people of multiple ethnic groups. Germanic tribes were first recorded within Silesia in the 1st century. Slavic peoples arrived in this territory around the 6th century.

plk123:

because the germans monkeyed with the votes.. you even said that yourself earlier.. thus it didn't really count..

Yeah..they were the majority in many places...who had no interest to live in a polish state...how bad of them! How dare they to skew the votes like that!!! :(

Not wanting to live in a polish state had many Silesians actually in common. Millions left Poland over the decades to live in Germany!
Thank you Klose, thank you Poldi! :)

ZedThreads: - Posts: 304 Joined: May 25, 10 ♂	Aug 30, 10, 23:34 #265
No russian there BB, you would have to educate yourself in Ukrainian :-).... many polish words but eastern slavic grammar

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 10, 23:36 #266
Zed: No russian there BB, you would have to educate yourself in Ukrainian :-).... many polish words but eastern slavic grammar slaps forehead Yeah..how could I forget! :)

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Aug 30, 10, 23:43 #267

Bratwurst Boy:

Yeah..they were the majority in many places...who had no interest to live in a polish state...how bad of them! How dare they to skew the votes like that!!! :(

no, it was these "silesians" that really weren't that cast their "votes".. you know, Chicago style.

Bratwurst Boy:

Not wanting to live in a polish state had many Silesians actually in common. Millions left Poland over the decades to live in Germany!

got kicked out after ww2.. yes, i'll give you that. but klose and podli left under communism.. just like millions of other poles.. nothing unusual there.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 10, 23:48 #268

plk123:

no, it was these "silesians" that really weren't that cast their "votes".. you know, Chicago style.

Oh forget about it....this plebiscite was controlled and observed by the League of Nations and counted as fair and square in the end.
OF COURSE the Poles protested as they lost this voting clearly! ROFL

plk123:

but klose and podli left under communism.

And because of the opression of the german silesian minority...they could use the german law what made those of german ancestry to german citizens if they so chose.
They could have immigrated everywhere...to the US, to Great Britain, to France...but they chose Germany!

There had been several such waves of immigration...the latest during the 80's with around a million Silesians leaving.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07 ♂	Edited by: plk123 Aug 30, 10, 23:50 #269
Bratwurst Boy: Oh forget about it....this plebiscite was controlled and observed by the League of Nations and counted as fair and square in the end. that is not what the conclusion was.. that's why the protest and then a win.. Bratwurst Boy: but they chose Germany! i don't have a problem with that. it's all good as far as i am concerned.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 30, 10, 23:55 #270

plk123:

that is not what the conclusion was.. that's why the protest and then a win..

They (The league of Nations) really tried to find a pragmatic solution, but it was not easy with the Poles always demanding more and more and more and with many places so heavily mixed...the towns overwhelmingy german with the farms around more polish.

The polish nationalist policy didn't help...they tried everything to heat up nationalist and ethnical strife (like with the uprisings) and used that to further unrest and fights.

If it had gone as the Poles wanted there would had been a mass ethnical cleansing in Silesia already before the war!

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