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What do Poles owe to Germans?


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pawianThreads: 90
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Edited by: pawian  Sep 10, 11, 22:04    #1
Sheit, I made a thread about Russian contribution and forgot to do the same with German one.

After all, they are our most important neighbours and require even treatment.


The first thing that comes to my mind: last Sunday we went to Krakow`s Old Town for a mass service. We went to St Barbara`s Church, next to St. Mary`s Cathedral which hosts a unique wooden Gothic altar by Vit Stoss, a German artist who worked in Krakow for a dozen or more years in 15 century:

d

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veit_Stoss

The altar at in Kraków was not completed until 1489, and was the largest triptych of its time and, like his other large works, required a large workshop including specialized painters and gilders.[3] Other important works from his period in Poland were the tomb of Casimir IV in Wawel Cathedral, the marble tomb of Zbigniew Oleśnicki in Gniezno, and the altar of Saint Stanislaus. The Polish court was more aware of Italian styles than Nuremberg patrons of that time, and some of his Polish work uses Renaissance classical ornament.[4]
During World War II, on the order of Obergruppenführer Hans Frank – the Governor-General of that region of occupied Poland – the dismantled Altar was shipped to the Third Reich around 1941. It was rediscovered in 1946 in Bavaria, hidden in the basement of the heavily bombed Nuremberg Castle.[5] The High Altar underwent major restoration work in Poland and was put back in its place at the Basilica only 10 years later.


See the panorama of the altar with minutest details:
http://www.mariacki.com/foto/galeria-oltarz-panorama/index.html

SokratesThreads: 19
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 Sep 11, 11, 00:14    #2

The first thing that comes to my mind: last Sunday we went to Krakow`s Old Town for a mass service. We went to St Barbara`s Church, next to St. Mary`s Cathedral which hosts a unique wooden Gothic altar by Vit Stoss, a German artist who worked in Krakow for a dozen or more years in 15 century:

I daresay Poles do not owe Germans anything and the altar was very well paid for (Stoss got more money than he could ever hoped for in Germany).

Lets do a bit of a summary of what Germans did for Poles.

Genocide of Gdańsk, renaming it Danzing and claiming its a german city.
Destruction of Warsaw, the capital of Poland.
Partitions.
Murder of 5 milion polish citizens.
Murder of the better part of the polish elite.
Mass kindappings of polish children during WW2.
Destruction and theft of polish industry after WW1.
Melting down polish crown jewels.
Blowing up parts of Wawel, one of the holiest and most ancient royal sites.
Supression of polish language for 123 years after invading Poland during the partitions.
Torture, all executioners and torturers as well as methods of torture were brought from Germany in the medieval times.
Bankrupting Poland and attempted partitions by saxon monarchs.

And much much more.
saschaThreads: 13
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 Sep 11, 11, 02:15    #3
What do Poles owe to Germans?

i understand that this is a polish forum, but in the future we will much more see of these 'who owes whom what' kind of threads?

maybe there are some unspoken/unmentioned things, i for my part think that this is kinda boring.

i like poles. punkt. i liked/like to be there. ende.
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Edited by: Marynka11  Sep 11, 11, 02:25    #4
When I was studying the DAAD (German Academic Exchange) was very generous when it came to sending us abroad and organizing integrating programs. I owe a lot of great experiences to that institution (and to the German taxpayers).
legendThreads: 9
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 Sep 11, 11, 04:07    #5
To be fair the Germans do give Poland some EU money.

Think of it as reparations for WWII.
tovarischThreads: 2
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Edited by: tovarisch  Sep 11, 11, 06:32    #6
"What do Poles owe to Germans?"

Hundreds of years of suppression and the worst genocide of the 20th century

I think Germany would like it if Poland decides not to pay back the "debt"
PalivecThreads: -
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 Sep 11, 11, 06:33    #7
Think of it as reparations for WWII.


Better think of Eastern Prussia, Silesia and Pomerania as reparations for WW2.
pawianThreads: 90
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Edited by: pawian  Sep 11, 11, 10:00    #8
Oops, guys, all of you who posted here when I was soundly sleeping.

I must say I am NOT impressed with your contribution. :):):):)

First of all, the thread is kinda historical.

That is why, can you abstain from mentioning such contemporary facts?:
To be fair the Germans do give Poland some EU money.

:):):)

Secondly, the thread is supposed to present positive things. That is why such true facts as

Murder of 5 milion polish citizens.Murder of the better part of the polish elite.



are politically incorrect here. :):):)

BTW, Sok, since when have you started acknowledging Polish Jews? You stinking hypocrite! ):):):):):)



Third, the thread is about Germans and Poland. Can you talk about England and other nations somewhere else? :):):)

But they owe England a lot.

Last, but not least, personal opinions which don`t have much historical value for the thread are also unnessessary. :):):)
i for my part think that this is kinda boring. i like poles. punkt. i liked/like to be there. ende.

I hope it is not too difficult to remember:

So, again:

Germans.

Positive.

History of Poland.

Do you think you are able to bear it in mind? I like working with intelligent people.

If you have nothing valuable to contribute, can you just read and learn from the thread?


Well, I hope you will come back to topic now.

Thanks in advance.


:):):):):):):)


Here is an example.

Coming back to Krakow again.

In one of his posts Palivec mentioned some Polish words which are derived from German: ratusz, burmistrz. etc etc. Town hall, mayor, etc.

Why?

Many Polish medieval towns adopted the so called Magdeburg Law for their settlement, development and ruling.

Magdeburg Rights (German: Magdeburger Recht) or Magdeburg Law were a set of German town laws regulating the degree of internal autonomy within cities and villages granted by a local ruler. Modelled and named after the laws of the German city of Magdeburg and developed during many centuries of the Holy Roman Empire, it was possibly the most important set of Germanic mediæval city laws. Adopted by numerous monarchs in Central and Eastern Europe, the law was a milestone in urbanization of the region and prompted the development of thousands of villages and cities. Apart from Magdeburg itself, notable towns based on Magdeburg Law (or its local variants) were Biecz, Frysztak, Sandomierz, Kraków, Kurów, Minsk, Polotsk, Poznań, Ropczyce, Łódź, Wrocław, Szczecin, Złotoryja, Vilnius, Trakai, Kaunas, Hrodna, Kiev, Lviv, Czernowitz (currently Chernivtsi in Ukraine), Brody, Lutsk, Volodymyr-Volynskyi, Sanok, Sniatyn, and Nizhyn, as well as Bardejov, Humenné and Krupina in present-day Slovakia.
Among the most advanced systems of old Germanic law of the time, in the 13th and 14th centuries, Magdeburg rights were granted to more than a hundred cities, in the north and east towards Russia, including Schleswig, Bohemia, Poland, Belarus[1], especially in Pomerania, Prussia, Lithuania (following the Christianization of Lithuania), Ukraine, and probably Moldavia. In these lands they were mostly known as German or Teutonic law. Since the local tribunal of Magdeburg thus also became the superior court for these towns, Magdeburg, together with Lübeck, practically defined the law of northern Germany, Poland and Lithuania for cent uries, being the heart of the most important "family" of city laws. This role remained until the old Germanic laws were successively replaced with Roman law under the influence of the Reichskammergericht, in the centuries after its establishment during the Imperial Reform of 1495.
As with most medieval city laws, the rights were primarily targeted at regulating trade to the benefit of the local merchants and artisans, who formed the most important part of the population of many such cities. In medieval Poland, Jews were invited along with German merchants to settle in cities as part of the royal city development policy.


Krakow is a perfect example:


Cities with German city rights often had similar layouts. Somewhat isolated was part of the city containing the residence and castle of the regional ruler, along with a cathedral. The city proper was centered around a market square which featured a church for wealthy merchants and artisans. Streets led out from the market in a planned grid system or concentric circles in which less wealthy citizens lived; riverfront sections of a city were designed with semicircles. The perimeter of the city was guarded by defensive walls, gates, and moats. If the city had already existed as a settlement, pre-existing defenses were sometimes incorporated into the fortifications. Cities whose layouts depict this type of urban planning include Wrocław, Kraków, Vienna, Brno, and Prague.


d

d

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_town_law

Together with German Town Law, German colonists/immigrants came and settled in Poland, welcomed by local rulers. Also, in Krakow.

Since the beginning of the 14/15th centuries, the Polish-Silesian Piast dynasty – (Władysław Opolczyk), reinforced German settlers on the land, who in decades founded more than 150 towns and villages under German town law, particularly under the law of the town Magdeburg (Magdeburg law).[dubious – discuss] Ethnic Germans, along with German-speaking Ashkenazi Jews from the Rhineland, also formed a large part of the town population of Kraków.
Concurrent with the change in the structure of the Polish State and sovereignty was an economic and social impoverishment of the country. Harassed by civil strife and foreign invasions, like the Mongol invasion in 1241, the small principalities became enfeebled and depopulated. The incomes of the Princes began to decrease materially. This led them to take steps toward encouraging immigration from foreign countries. A great number of German peasants, who, during the interregnum following the death of Frederick II, suffered great oppression at the hands of their lords, were induced to settle in Poland under very favorable conditions. German immigration into Poland had started spontaneously earlier, about the end of the 11th century, and was the result of overpopulation in the central provinces of the Empire. Advantage of the existing tendency had already been taken by the Polish Princes in the 12th century for the development of cities and crafts. Now the movement became intensified.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostsiedlung#Poland
CrowThreads: 367
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Edited by: Crow  Sep 11, 11, 12:07    #9
What do Poles owe to Germans?

`sex` in political sense
retroDog  Sep 11, 11, 12:28    #10
positives?
ok catolic church and "baptism of nation" came from germany
wich also is a reason why Poles are using normal alphabet not cyrylica/bukwy
and German leader (Otto 3?) coronated first polish official prince, those makeing Poland an official state

and from recent history: polish thrash metal ows some to teutonic thrash
legendThreads: 9
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 Sep 11, 11, 13:03    #11
positives?
ok catolic church and "baptism of nation" came from germany
wich also is a reason why Poles are using normal alphabet not cyrylica/bukwy
and German leader (Otto 3?) coronated first polish official prince, those makeing Poland an official state

and from recent history: polish thrash metal ows some to teutonic thrash


from one point of view I am happy Polish uses roman letters.
but from another view if it was cryllic then less people would infiltrate our language :D
SokratesThreads: 19
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 Sep 11, 11, 14:01    #12
Secondly, the thread is supposed to present positive things. That is why such true facts as

The problem is that Germans did not give Poland anything, what they brought to Poland was y'know bought by Poles, with good money too so its hard to write about positives as from this point of view there were none.
RetroDog  Sep 11, 11, 14:36    #13
It's possible Poles owes them a few Mercedes cars ...
pawianThreads: 90
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Edited by: pawian  Sep 11, 11, 16:33    #14
The problem is that Germans did not give Poland anything, what they brought to Poland was y'know bought by Poles, with good money too so its hard to write about positives as from this point of view there were none.

Don`t be silly. And so obsessed with money. If not Vit Stwosz, the German, Poles would never have acquired such an altar, no matter how much they would pay to Czech or Italian sculpters. As simple as that, if not him in Poland, no masterpiece altar for Poles.
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 Sep 11, 11, 17:00    #15
Hmm....experience of a different culture on their own doorstep was nice so appreciation for that. Linguistic awareness came from that. I'm thinking of Ozimek and the Opole region. Owe is not the right word, tho
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 Sep 11, 11, 17:06    #16
Don`t be silly. And so obsessed with money. If not Vit Stwosz, the German, Poles would never have acquired such an altar

Yes they would, they'd just hire an Italian to do it, Vit got lucky since it wa mostly italians who got commisions.
no matter how much they would pay to Czech or Italian sculpters. As simple as that, if not him in Poland, no masterpiece altar for Poles.

Italians had at the time a much better record of sculptures, i dont see a problem in hiring one to do a better work.

So no we dont "owe" the altar to the Germans.
pawianThreads: 90
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 Sep 11, 11, 17:15    #17
Despite popular beliefs, Poland didn`t owe its baptism and christianity to Germans. Quite the opposite, Mieszko I, the first ruler of Poland, adopted the christianity in 966 to protect his land from German expansion which used the pretext of conversion of pagan Slavic tribes.

So, when Germans created the diocese in Magdeburg in 968 with a view to take Slavic lands under its influence, it was too late as Mieszko, with his baptism, established the direct connection with Rome`s pope, not a German bishop.

Mieszko married Czech princess Dobrawa (already baptised) in 965 so we can say that Poles owe christianity to Czechs.

However, it can be true that the ceremony of baptism took place not in Gniezno (Poland) but somewhere in Germany (Ratyzbona) or even Rome.

http://www.sciaga.pl/tekst/29421-30-stosunki_polsko_niemieckie_w_okres ie_wczesnopiastowskim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_of_Poland
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 Sep 11, 11, 17:17    #18

However, it can be true that the ceremony of baptism took place not in Gniezno (Poland) but somewhere in Germany (Ratyzbona) or even Rome.

Unlikely, Mieszko could not leave his country for a longer period of time, Poland was still being formed.
pawianThreads: 90
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 Sep 11, 11, 17:34    #19
=Sokrates]Unlikely, Mieszko could not leave his country for a longer period of time, Poland was still being formed.

Rubbish. Check sources.

In early 966 Mieszko travelled to Czechia to visit his father in law, Czech ruler, prince Bolesław and prolong their alliance against pagan tribes that troubled Mieszko at the time. And that`s a fact.

And some historians believe that from there, they went together to Ratyzbona to have Mieszko baptised by the local bishop.
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 Sep 11, 11, 17:40    #20
In early 966 Mieszko travelled to Czechia to visit his father in law, Czech ruler, prince Bolesław and prolong their alliance against pagan tribes that troubled Mieszko at the time. And that`s a fact.

Czechy aint Vatican also how long did he stay there?
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 Sep 11, 11, 18:38    #21
Yes they would, they'd just hire an Italian to do it, Vit got lucky since it wa mostly italians who got commisions.


What Stoss made was a late Gothic altar. In Italy however Gothic wasn't en vogue anymore at that time. So Pawian is right. If not Vit Stwosz, the German, Poles would never have acquired *such an altar*.
SokratesThreads: 19
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 Sep 11, 11, 18:47    #22

What Stoss made was a late Gothic altar. In Italy however Gothic wasn't en vogue anymore at that time. So Pawian is right. If not Vit Stwosz, the German, Poles would never have acquired *such an altar*.

Sorry nope, if they got paid they would built it, what Stoss did while an art-work could have been done by someone else and if need be would have been done by someone else, he was just at hand.

Also as i pointed out he got paid very handsomely so its hardy a debt.
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 Sep 11, 11, 19:09    #23
The very notion of Poles "owing" anything to Germans because a German carved an alterpiece and some Polish cities were organized around a "German" legal model is ridiculous. The sculptor was paid for his service and the Romans taught the Germans about civic organization.
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 Sep 11, 11, 19:27    #24
Amazing isnt it? And Germans are utterly convinced they brought civilisation to Poland (by destroying it?)
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Edited by: southern  Sep 11, 11, 19:36    #25
Poles owe to Germans the german cities like Wroclaw,Stettin etc which the Germans generously handed to them by gallancy.Also the castle of Marienburg where the Grand Master of teutonic horde a true friend of Poland resided.
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 Sep 11, 11, 19:40    #26
Southern, is it Breslau or Wrocław now? Is it Stettin or Szczecin now?
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 Sep 11, 11, 19:41    #27
In Germany they are still called Breslau,Krakau,Posen,Stettin in all signs.
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 Sep 11, 11, 19:50    #28
And I'm sure all manner of other countries have their own names for those cities too. What's your point?
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Edited by: Sokrates  Sep 11, 11, 19:59    #29
And I'm sure all manner of other countries have their own names for those cities too. What's your point?

That in their chauvinism Germans see all the afformentioned cities as theirs, often enough completely baselessly.

All it takes is for you to read our resident german BB, his posts basically amounted to "We brought you civilisation!!!11111111" and he was completely deaf when someone pointed to him that Poles built their own sophisticated culture and the only influence Germans had was attempting to destroy it for the past 1000 years.
RetroDog  Sep 11, 11, 20:00    #30
southern:
and red army has nothing to do with Germans generosity?

pawian:
my mistake about baptism, I forgot about it.


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