Polish bombers over Berlin in 1939?

sobieskiThreads: 82 Posts: 1,143 Joined: Jun 1, 08 ♂	Sep 24, 11, 15:44 #1
I have read a few times about Polish bombers operating over Berlin beginning of Septemer 1939 (PZL.39 Łoś). Does someone knows more about this?

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	Sep 24, 11, 15:56 #2
nothing like that happened - there was some war-time hutzpah propaganda on the side of Polish authorities - Polish radio anounced for example that on September the 6th the French achieved a breakthrough on the western front in several locations - news about Polish bombers raids over Berlin were of equal worth and from the same motivation

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Sep 24, 11, 15:59 #3

olish radio anounced for example that on September the 6th the French achieved a breakthrough on the western front in several locations

That report was given to polish authorities by the French, the Poles at the time were unaware that it was bollocks.

ews about Polish bombers raids over Berlin were of equal worth and from the same motivation

There were no such news.

Polish bombers were for the first week of the war busy bombing various targets of opportunity, afterwards they were grounded or destroyed by the vastly more numerous Luftwaffe.

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Sep 24, 11, 17:26 #4

I have read a few times about Polish bombers operating over Berlin beginning of Septemer 1939 (PZL.39 Łoś). Does someone knows more about this?

I suspect it's just a myth and wishful thinking made up by journalists at that time to raise the morale of the people much like the myth of Polish cavalry attacking German tanks that was made up by Italian journalist and very much still held as absolute truth by many. Yes there were few reports at the time most notable example is an article that appeared in Kurier Poranny dated 5th of September 1939 but the truth of the matter is that Polish military decided to use their air assets on the front lines where it was needed the most not some revenge bombing of Berlin as some journalists wished it to be so and rightly so.

Polish air-force had 392 planes at their disposal at that time and on the eve of war they received 38 more giving it a grand total of 430 used in September campaign. The truth once again is much different than a popular view held by many today that Polish air-force was destroyed on the ground on the eve of war propagated by the German propaganda machine. Some were but one look at statistics alone and a much different picture emerges. As it turns out that out of 430 Polish planes 333 were lost in combat not on the ground as claimed by the Germans, most of them over Radomsko, Ciechanów, Pułtusk, Kuciny and Piotrków where they were used in ground support role, casualties of anti aircraft fire. Polish planes at the time were simply no match for German Messerschmitt 109 and110 so not many dogfights either, only 1/3 rd of all planes lost were the result of dogfights with German pilots as they were at a disadvantage but unavoidable in a fast moving chaos of much different war. Realistically speaking Polish military only had 25 planes at their disposal at that time that could face Messerschmitt on equal terms, a number way too small to make a real difference or a dent. At the end of September campaign the ones that were still flying were designated to recognisances missions.

Sadly myths persists and are much more appealing to many than the truth just because something appeared in print and the true heroes of the defence of Poland who paid the ultimate price forgotten as a result. Most people know more about Polish participation in the battle of Britain than the air battles fought during September campaign over Poland, a shame really especially if you're Polish.

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Edited by: pawian Sep 24, 11, 21:50 #5

=sobieski]I have read a few times about Polish bombers operating over Berlin beginning of Septemer 1939 (PZL.39 Łoś). Does someone knows more about this?

Funny that you mention it. I recall it every year when we celebrate the anniversary in September. I saw the original article about it in 1939 newspaper. I remember it claimed that about 30 Łoś bombers attacked Berlin.

Of course, it was state propaganda to boost the Polish morale.

Gumishu and others are right.

PS. Here you are:

Funny, the planes were described as fighters! Łosie Poznańskie! :):):):

Explanation: the newspaper was considered a tabloid at the time.

MyMomThreads: 9 Posts: 185 Joined: Aug 13, 11 ♂	Sep 24, 11, 22:16 #6
The same newspaper says that French and Brits are kicking German asses...

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,395 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Edited by: pawian Sep 25, 11, 02:28 #7
=MyMom]The same newspaper says that French and Brits are kicking German asses... Exactly. Did you notice the colour of the newspaper? Yellowish.......

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Edited by: Des Essientes Sep 25, 11, 03:15 #8

Did you notice the colour of the newspaper? Yellowish

Pawain, you should be aware that the term "yellow journalism" doesn't come from the hue of the newspaper, but from the fact that sensationalist newspapers all published a comic strip called "Hogan's Alley" which featured a character called "the Yellow Kid". a toddler in a nightshirt whose constant goal was seeking out alcohol and cigars so he could get drunk and smoke.

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Sep 25, 11, 03:20 #9

=Des Essientes]Pawain, you should be aware that the term "yellow journalism" doesn't come from the hue of the newspaper, but from the fact that sensationalist newspapers all published a comic strip called "The Yellow Kid". Which was about a toddler in a nightshirt whose constant goal was seeking out beer and cigars so he could get drunk and smoke.

Wow, I knew about the Yellow Kid, but didn`t associate it with yellow press. Thanks.

Can you also explain the term: gutter press ?

modafinilThreads: - Posts: 831 Joined: Jun 28, 11 ♂	Sep 25, 11, 03:23 #10
Can you also explain the term: gutter press ? That's the UK equivalent.

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Sep 25, 11, 07:54 #11

Polish air-force had 392 planes at their disposal at that time and on the eve of war they received 38 more giving it a grand total of 430 used in September campaign. The truth once again is much different than a popular view held by many today that Polish air-force was destroyed on the ground on the eve of war propagated by the German propaganda machine. Some were but one look at statistics alone and a much different picture emerges. As it turns out that out of 430 Polish planes 333 were lost in combat not on the ground as claimed by the Germans, most of them over Radomsko, Ciechanów, Pułtusk, Kuciny and Piotrków where they were used in ground support role, casualties of anti aircraft fire. Polish planes at the time were simply no match for German Messerschmitt 109 and110 so not many dogfights either, only 1/3 rd of all planes lost were the result of dogfights with German pilots as they were at a disadvantage but unavoidable in a fast moving chaos of much different war. Realistically speaking Polish military only had 25 planes at their disposal at that time that could face Messerschmitt on equal terms, a number way too small to make a real difference or a dent. At the end of September campaign the ones that were still flying were designated to recognisances missions.

After WWI Poland gained independence and if they feared an oncoming war they should have got as many WWI surplus planes as possible. There were thousands available from the French, Germans and English that were simply thrashed. WWI airplane would have made excellent ground support aircraft and if the Poles would have had 10,000 WWI planes the German invasion may have had a different result.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,395 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Sep 25, 11, 08:23 #12
Chicago Pollock, don`t be a chicago pollock, please. You abuse Polishness with your moronry. Then real Poles wonder why they are derided in US.

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Edited by: delphiandomine Sep 25, 11, 10:01 #13

After WWI Poland gained independence and if they feared an oncoming war they should have got as many WWI surplus planes as possible. There were thousands available from the French, Germans and English that were simply thrashed. WWI airplane would have made excellent ground support aircraft and if the Poles would have had 10,000 WWI planes the German invasion may have had a different result.

Where was the money to buy such, or even maintain them?

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Sep 25, 11, 12:56 #14

After WWI Poland gained independence and if they feared an oncoming war they should have got as many WWI surplus planes as possible. There were thousands available from the French, Germans and English that were simply thrashed. WWI airplane would have made excellent ground support aircraft and if the Poles would have had 10,000 WWI planes the German invasion may have had a different result.

Why would Poland buy junk that wouldnt help at all?

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Sep 25, 11, 14:49 #15

The truth once again is much different than a popular view held by many today that Polish air-force was destroyed on the ground on the eve of war propagated by the German propaganda machine.

The German propaganda was a very powerful tool. The same as soviet. At every occasion they tried to ignore polish accomplishments and Poland.
The same was with Łoś aircraft

Here is some facts about that aircraft .
Work on the design and manufacture of the aircraft proceeded at lightning speed. It started in 1934, and has already flown a prototype in 1936. When the summer of 1939 the Germans marched into Polish, just 124 bomber aircraft PZL 37 elk were produced .

Łoś was the miracle of technology at those times in the world .

The "Moose" - an english name was a twin-engine medium bomber with a maximum speed of 412 km / h lifting capacity to 2000 kg bombs. These machines were distinguished themselves in attacking German armored columns on the 16th Body of Radom. At the outbreak of war on the line there were only 36 PZL 37 "Moose".

Since the beginning an interest of the "Moose" was very great. After the presentation of the aircraft at the Paris Air Show "Elk" plant in Mielec and Okęcie received plenty of offers for the purchase and licensing of these aircraft. "Moose" was the hope of the Polish Air Force and was a design far exceeding German aircrafts , better even than the Dutch Fokker FVII.

But it turned out that both the "Moose " and other Polish military structures has been put into service too late. It was not enough time for testing newly constructed machines under the conditions of exercises in real battles . During the operations in the September Campaign "Mooses " did not fulfill its task. They were too poorly armed and actually flew without fighter cover. The plane was not sufficiently armored and had no self-sealing fuel tanks. Not all manufactured by the year 1939 "Mooses " were complete with on-board equipment. The shortcomings were mainly radio and communications systems .

PWEIThreads: 5 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 28, 11 ♂	Sep 25, 11, 16:53 #16
Chicago Pollock, don`t be a chicago pollock, please. You abuse Polishness with your moronry. Then real Poles wonder why they are derided in US. And half of them are actually Ukrainians not Poles anyway!

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Sep 26, 11, 17:39 #17

if they feared an oncoming war they should have got as many WWI surplus planes as possible.

Surely you jest. As polmed pointed out in her piece Poland had a far better resources to rely on then the flying coffins you speak of that were domestically designed and produced. Here's something for you to ponder on and a good parallel to what you have proposed, can you imagine what would have happened if Americans solely flew P-51 Mustang's against the Soviet made MIG-15's in Korean war? Besides that's not the real number of overall Polish air assets at the time either, merely a number used against the Germans in September campaign. There's a lot more factors at play to fully operate all the assets you have. Can you imagine the number of personnel needed for each plane to keep it operational?

A lot of Polish military personnel as well as equipment was moved to the Romanian corridor including planes reflective of the overall strategy of Polish high commend and perhaps their foolish faith in their allies and the confidence that the agreements actually made and signed would be honoured. Perhaps those worthless agreements in itself were just a casualty of another worthless piece of paper or propaganda if you prefer hailed as peace in our time by Chamberlain had something to do with that. When Poland finally fell Romania received 40 PZL.11's, 14 PZL.7's, 31 PZL.23's, 27 PZL.37's and 29 various other types of planes claimed by Germans as spoils of war given to Romania alone not to mention 130 planes that were taken over by the Soviet Russia and all very much still usable and useful for them to take, not some junk-yard surplus you speak of either.

During the September campaign Germans lost 247 planes over Poland and about equal number were damaged, so overall a loss of 333 planes on the Polish side vs. 247 on the German side is no small victory for the Poles considering what's hailed as technological superiority of the German Luftwaffe. Keep in mind that 44 of the planes lost by the Germans were 109's and 110's never to be used on the western front and a technological marvel in any western mind vs.25 Polish planes that could actually face them as equals in combat. Mind you Germans had 2700 planes over Poland during the September campaign so those numbers speak for themselves as to their so called great victory over Poland, with the help of Soviets. Victory? Perhaps, but with very heavy losses in my mind and short lived victory at that. Nothing to brag about, in my book one has to enjoy the fruits of victory in order to claim it and unlike the Soviets, Germans simply did not.

sobieskiThreads: 82 Posts: 1,143 Joined: Jun 1, 08 ♂	Sep 27, 11, 16:34 #18
Little-known is, I think, that the Soviets bombed Berlin August-October 1941 with the only four-engined bomber in their arsenal;, the Pe-8.

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Sep 27, 11, 16:53 #19

Little-known is, I think, that the Soviets bombed Berlin August-October 1941 with the only four-engined bomber in their arsenal;, the Pe-8.

what difference did it make - I doubt they could have send more than 30 planes in a single run - and that all without a fighter escort (no such long range Soviet fighter at that time) and I guess it was only possible at nights - and it still must have taken a heavy toll - I am not 100 per cent sure now but from what I can gather the Soviet bombing wing remained a tactical force for the remainder of the war (and not strategical)

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