Polish historical myths - to break or not to break them?

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pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 20:28 #31
1jola: . Now I'm gonna wet my bed and have nightmares. Wetting a bed and having nightmares aren`t contradictory?

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 20:34 #32
Not if you look at Doda and that other thing.

BarneyThreads: 14 Posts: 1,469 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 21:11 #33
scrappleton: All done for your glorious crown Be advised, my passport's green No glass of ours was ever raised To toast the Queen (Seamus Heaney)

♂

Edited by: scrappleton Jan 21, 10, 22:22 #34

Barney:

Be advised, my passport's green

then you still have amnesia given the kindnesss my country has always shown yours.. Potato famine?? The hordes of stinking uneducated immigrants we accepted from Ireland.

POS hypocrite you are. Typical European. And the Irish are hardly without sin, slick. Never have been. Irish benefitted for centuries on the blood of the English empire, via jobs,investments, whatever..

I'd like to bash your idiotic scull in personally.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 22:46 #35
scrappleton: The hordes of stinking uneducated immigrants we accepted from Ireland. And maybe from Poland too?

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 23:01 #36
I'm only singing about communist genocides when I get the chance. Some say that's another myth.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Edited by: SeanBM Jan 21, 10, 23:04 #37
scrappleton: Irish benefitted for centuries on the blood of the English empire, via jobs,investments, whatever.. You are going to have to educate me here, what are you talking about? It is like saying slaves benefited from slavery. The strange thing about your and Barney's argument here is that at the time, you were Europeans. Americans/Europeans one and the same in this context.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: jonni Jan 21, 10, 23:13 #38
Myths are for understanding. They're for breaking if there's something to be gained from breaking them. Otherwise trying to understand the is more useful.

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Jan 21, 10, 23:26 #39

SeanBM:

Americans/Europeans one and the same in this context.

No they're not.. they haven't been one in the same for hundreds of years. Ask you Mick countrymen, he's always blathering on about Americans killing indians. It's a little ironic for any European wagging his finger at anyone commiting genocide. It's comical in the extreme.

jonni:

Get turned down for Medicare & Food Stamps?

Don't need them limey.. Unlike you, I don't live off the gov'ment. Now run along like a good Brit with some young boy to the bushes. Jonni grab those ankles mate, hahaha. British fa.ggot!

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Jan 21, 10, 23:33 #40

I think this one is a modern day myth Irish welcome on Polish building sites ?.
It just makes no logical sense, why would Polish people put up a sign, in English, in Poland?
Irish people have not come here to look for jobs on a building site.

This myth has been added to, like a game of Chinese whispers.
I was told by a taxi man in Ireland that 2000 Poles walked off site in Poland because an Irish man walked on. Apart from having an over inflated opinion about himself, it is just pure lies, that just wouldn't happen.

But where I find the interest is how willing people are to believe it. I even thought it could have been true myself but this shows more about how we feel than what actually happened.
Ireland was a poor country (it certainly did not benefit from the British Empire) and it became rich over night.
Money became the only conversation people had any more, greed unseen before to this extent, had come in full swing.
Polish people were working hard and some Irish people were making a lot of money from it.

This myth has the sentiment that a Pole went to Ireland worked his butt off, got stroked by the developer and told an Irish person to get off site because he was treated badly.
Irish people automatically sympathise with this mythical Polish person, it kinda does relate to the British Empire.

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Edited by: Ironside Jan 21, 10, 23:41 #41
hey Americans are innocent as spring grass! lay off you European bastards You all should educate yourself and read New York Morning Star's article by John O'Sullivan in 1845. You would understand that American's are new and good as opposite to old and tyrannical old world.

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Edited by: SeanBM Jan 21, 10, 23:46 #42

SeanBM:

Americans/Europeans one and the same in this context.

scrappleton:

No they're not.. they haven't been one in the same for hundreds of years. Ask you Mick countrymen, he's always blathering on about Americans killing indians.

That's not true.
Modern day Caucasian Americans are descendents of Europeans. I am sure you know this.
And we are talking about the killing of native Americans, which Europeans/Americans did do.

scrappleton:

C'mon Mick tell me how stupid I am. You can't even rid YOUR country of the English. hahahahahahaha.. stupid begging inbreds. The dumbest Americans are always Micks or Scottish. Drunken clowns.. good for being cops or loading a ship.. that's it. Bono always with his hand out to the "dumb" yankee. Typical European. "The yanks are stupid, hey yank give us some money". Hahaha. Priceless.

Ah, I see now, you are just a dick, ah well.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: jonni Jan 21, 10, 23:50 #43
scrappleton: The dumbest Americans are always Micks or Scottish. I thought Americans generally say that about Polish?

BarneyThreads: 14 Posts: 1,469 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 23:50 #44
scrappleton: You haven't refuted anything Its all there for you to read, you can read?

scrappletonThreads: - Posts: 1,365 Joined: Apr 28, 09 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 23:50 #45
jonni: I'm proud to be British and proud to be a faggot LOL... holy sh.t.. get some duck tape underwear boys. You're going to need it on this forum.

f stopThreads: 28 Posts: 2,681 Joined: Dec 9, 09 ♀	Jan 21, 10, 23:55 #46
duct tape (could not help it, it's a personal pet peeve)

scrappletonThreads: - Posts: 1,365 Joined: Apr 28, 09 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 23:57 #47
f stop: duct tape (could not help it, it's a personal pet peeve) http://www.duckbrand.com/

f stopThreads: 28 Posts: 2,681 Joined: Dec 9, 09 ♀	Jan 22, 10, 01:03 #48
scrappleton: http://www.duckbrand.com/ Crap. One less thing to b!tch about.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,354 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Jan 22, 10, 06:58 #49
SeanBM: And we are talking about the killing of native Americans, which Europeans/Americans did do. SeanBM as others have inclined they don't know the FACTS they know the myth only! All of American except for the immigrants were born in America! Just ask any guy in America where he was born! xD lol

scrappletonThreads: - Posts: 1,365 Joined: Apr 28, 09 ♂	Jan 22, 10, 07:06 #50
Mr Grunwald: SeanBM as others have inclined they don't know the FACTS they know the myth only! What the hell are you jabbering about?

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Edited by: SeanBM Jan 22, 10, 12:04 #51

We probably all lie to our selves about what has happened and not just as a country but as individuals but we are not talking about that, are we?

We want to look at the great things our countries have done and say "Yes, I am a part of that!" and ignore the negatives, cover them in myth or hide them, it only takes your little finger to block out the sun.

Mr Grunwald:

All of American except for the immigrants were born in America! Just ask any guy in America where he was born! xD lol

Well lets bring it home a bit, Norwegians tried to wipe out the indigenous Sami culture.

Ireland has it's share of wrong doings also but we won't talk about those ;)

My point is not to offend, my point is that perhaps many people need these myths to feel good about themselves because most countries at some point through their historys are guilty of some wrong doings and we do not want to see ourselves as guilty.

For example did the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth simply expand and form this huge empire.
Were the territories that became part of this Empire willing or were they taken by force?
I have only heard and seen how great it was, surely armies were sent out to kick ass?
I am not talking about Lithuanian and Polish agreement but the other lands they conquered.

ExiledThreads: 5 Posts: 729 Joined: Jan 17, 10 ♂	Jan 22, 10, 13:48 #52
In my opinion the Poles like to believe in myths and Marchen,it is part of their psyche,so better leave them like that.

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Edited by: pawian Jan 22, 10, 17:46 #53

SeanBM:

My point is not to offend, my point is that perhaps many people need these myths to feel good about themselves because most countries at some point through their historys are guilty of some wrong doings and we do not want to see ourselves as guilty.

Yes.

Exiled:

In my opinion the Poles like to believe in myths and Marchen,it is part of their psyche,so better leave them like that.

Not only Poles. Also Germans, Russians, Americans, British, French etc etc etc .

♂

Edited by: pawian Jan 31, 10, 23:22 #54

convex:

I'm reminded of the fight that took place in '68 in northern Bohemia, can you tell me about that?

convex:

Yeah, you know....Poles in tanks...leading the fight since WW2...

Bratwurst Boy:

Also upholding myths which paints one side only totally rosy is not helpful for any reconciliation at all!

Reconciliation is a good word to describe Czech and Polish political relations today. Yes, Poles participated in the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968. Polish communist leader Gomułka urged the harsh solutions with Prague Spring because he feared that free Czechoslovakia would fall prey to Germany, thus flanking Poland from the south, like in 1939 (German attack on Poland from 3 directions - north, west and south).

So, Poles became invaders and occupants. Like in Napoleonic times on San Domingo, they went without enthusiasm, but did their duty as it was expected of them.

Polish troops in Czechoslovakia. Poles "heroically defended" a few big towns against Czech patriots: Hradec Kralove, Pardubice, Olomunec, Trutnow.

Polish troops return to Poland after their mission.

Each Pole is a good soldier

The occupation was not too peaceful. Polish soldiers actively suppressed the Czech opposition, by tracking down illegal radio stations or printing houses. They also removed the anti-invasion graffiti on walls. They put pressure on local patriotic authorities which were reluctant to cooperate with true communists who started taking control thanks to the invasion.

Polish soldiers sometimes behaved like real occupants. When they went to local pubs and received unfriendly comments from Czechs, they could get really nasty and it often happened that they ordered a Czech man to drink beer from his shoes..... :(:(:(

The greatest tragedy happened when on 7 September, 1968, a drunk Polish soldier opened fire into the crowd of civilians, killing 2 and wounding 5 people on the spot, also trying to rape a wounded woman. The killer was sentenced to death, later changed to life, and finally left prison after 15 years.

Polish society`s opposition against the invasion was feeble. One must remember, though, that 3 months before the Polish authorities had cracked on restive students and intellectuals demanding greater freedom.

Nevertheless, during and after the invasion of Czechoslovakia the Polish secret police noticed many anti-government leaflets and graffiti on walls. Also a few intellectuals and writers sent a letter of protest to authorities. Some party members resigned from their membership.

The most spectacular act of protest against the invasion was the self-burning of Ryszard Siwiec.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryszard_Siwiec

Ryszard Siwiec (1909—September 12, 1968) was a Polish accountant, teacher and former Home Army soldier who was the first person to set himself on fire in protest against the Soviet-led invasion of Czechoslovakia. He set himself ablaze in Warsaw during a national harvest festival on September 8, 1968 at the Dziesięciolecia Stadium, and died in hospital four days later. His act was witnessed by nearly 100,000 spectators, including the national leadership and foreign diplomats who had been invited to the festival intended as a vast propaganda spectacle. A father of five from Przemyśl, Siwiec planned his self-immolation in advance, leaving written and tape-recorded statements explaining his revulsion at both the Warsaw Pact invasion and communist Poland's participation in it. His death foreshadowed the famous self-immolation of Jan Palach in Prague four months later. It has not been revealed whether Palach knew about Siwiec's act of protest, as the Polish communist authorities vigorously suppressed any information about it, stating only that Siwiec was "suffering from mental illness". Although his act was captured by a motion picture camera, newsreels of the festival omitted any mention of the incident. Although a number of Czechoslovaks attended the festival, Siwiec's death became widely known in Czechoslovakia only after the news of it was broadcast on Radio Free Europe two months after Palach's death.

See the photo. In the stadium folk dancing, the tragedy of self burning man in the center.

Film showing Siwiec tragedy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZZlrPQHDH0

All Polish democratic governments since 1990 apologised officially to our Slavic brothers for what we did to them. Even General Jaruzelski, then a Defence Minister, sent an apology to the Czech.
http://www.radio.cz/en/article/69856

Poland's former Communist leader Wojciech Jaruzelski has apologised for the role his country played in the 1968 Soviet-led invasion of Czechoslovakia. General Jaruzelski served as Defence Minister in August 1968, when 26,000 Polish troops joined the huge invasion force which crossed Czechoslovakia's borders.
The commemoration is an annual and by now unremarkable event. But this year, General Jaruzelski, Poland's last Communist president, appeared live on Czech Television to apologise for his country's role in the 1968 invasion. His words were simultaneously translated by an interpreter.
"I'm well aware of just how wrong a decision it was. I'm sorry about it, it still pains me. I know the Czech people expect this of me, so I say to you - I'm sorry, and I want to repeat it once again. I'm capable of saying it once again, and stressing it, underlining it."
General Jaruzelski, who was defence minister in 1968, said by putting his signature to the invasion he was implementing a political decision. He said he soon came to realise the invasion was a "stupid, political act."
It's not the first time General Jaruzelski has apologised for Poland's role in the invasion. The Polish leader said he was sorry in 1990, when the newly elected Czechoslovak president Vaclav Havel visited Warsaw.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4171966.stm

Better late than never.

Now, I know that Poles tend to justify the Polish participation by usual: we were suppressed by communists, it wasn`t Polish decision etc etc.
But did it really make any difference to Czechs who saw Polish troops in their cities and towns? Or the Czech family whose members were massacred by a mad Polish soldier?
Czechs just knew that Poles occupied them and that`s what counted.

That is why I support the official apologies issued by Polish governments to southern neighbours. It wasn`t only evil communists, unfortunately, who organised the invasion against the popular will and without consent of the nation. The historical sources prove that most Poles were glad the invasion took place, they considered it lesser evil. For them it was better to have suppressed Czechoslovakia than German Czechoslovakia. Let`s remember that by 1968 West Germany hadn`t settled its former lands issue with Poland.

The sources in Polish:
http://www.mowiawieki.pl/artykul.html?id_artykul=993
http://histmag.org/?id=1992

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 23:27 #55
pawian: Better have suppressed Czechoslovakia than German Czechoslovakia. Huh?

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 23:39 #56
Bratwurst Boy: Huh? With communism gone, which way would Czechoslovakia go? Sooner or later, it would become German ally. :):) Poles really didn`t want to have such a neighbour in the south.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 23:47 #57
Then why not discuss the issue, rather than launching on in there? I don't think the Czechs were overly pleased with those tactics.

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Jan 31, 10, 23:54 #58
Seanus: Then why not discuss the issue, rather than launching on in there? I don't think the Czechs were overly pleased with those tactics. Communists didn`t accept discussion.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jan 31, 10, 23:58 #59
pawian: Communists didn`t accept discussion. Na ja....but you wrote yourself that the majority of Poles were quite pleased with the invasion because of their fears of Germany. That's not quite brotherly, freedom lovingly etc. at all.....

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Feb 1, 10, 00:00 #60
Communists likely didn't accept rebellion either.

re: Polish historical myths - to break or not to break them?

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