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Polish historical myths - to break or not to break them?


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pawianThreads: 80
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Edited by: pawian  Feb 1, 10, 00:18    #61
Bratwurst Boy:
Na ja....but you wrote yourself that the majority of Poles were quite pleased with the invasion because of their fears of Germany.
That's not quite brotherly, freedom lovingly etc. at all.....

Poles still had German occupation in memory, and the year was 1968, 23 years after WW2 ended. Till today some buildings in Warsaw bear scars from the war and the Rising,

g

h

f

h


so what do you expect from people who lived in 1968??? Brotherly feelings? After 6 million victims of German folly? :):):):)

BarneyThreads: 14
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 Feb 1, 10, 00:27    #62
Very interesting
Are you saying that people hide behind myths?
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Feb 1, 10, 00:37    #63
pawian:
so what do you expect from people who lived in 1968??? Brotherly feelings? After 6 million victims of German folly? :):):):)

For their chzechoslovakian slavic brothers who too had been victims of Nazi-Germany?
Who were about to shed the shackles of yet another dictatorship? As the Poles wished to do also?
For sure!
Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34
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 Feb 4, 10, 22:26    #64
SeanBM:
Well lets bring it home a bit, Norwegians tried to wipe out the indigenous Sami culture.

I know, and many Norwegians don't really /care
I am really ashamed of it, I think of the Sami culture very highly

Still proves my point that... not many Norwegians know FULLY what the Sami people went through...
Bratwurst Boy:
Who were about to shed the shackles of yet another dictatorship? As the Poles wished to do also?

The internet wasn't available the communication between nations wasn't that good, and nobody knew that much about what happened in ww2 like we know today.

Also Poles looked at Germans, Germany as evil imperialists (think of the propaganda from the commies with the NATO imperialistic countries etc). You know what propaganda can do to a person ;)
The times was right after WW2 :p
optsThreads: 12
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 Jul 3, 10, 01:39    #65
Thread attached on merging:
check out black Poles in Haiti


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Edited by: beckski  Jul 3, 10, 01:59    #66
Very interesting combination. I heard the Haitian Black Pole descendents do take pride in their ancestry.

Honk if you love PF :)
optsThreads: 12
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 Jul 3, 10, 02:23    #67
I did not know that black Poles in Haiti existed.

Yes, you are correct beckski, "Black Pole descendents do take pride in their ancestry.

If you view the 4 segments titled "Les Polonais on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjGrm8CTM4U&feature=related" the black Poles talk about being proud of being Polish.
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 Jul 3, 10, 02:37    #68
Why are they proud?
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 Jul 3, 10, 02:44    #69
opts:
I did not know that black Poles in Haiti existed.

They didnt its a myth
check the links Here
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 Jul 3, 10, 06:06    #70
This is a joke.....right?
Chicago PollockThreads: 10
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 Jul 3, 10, 06:45    #71
There are Blacks in Chicago with POLISH last names. Those Polish Buggers get around.
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Edited by: Torq  Jul 3, 10, 08:58    #72
Aaaaah - the Lost Tribe of Poles ;)

I read about this Polish black society long time ago. They are descendants
of 6000 Polish legionnaires sent on Haiti by Napoleon Bonaparte.

I say - bring them home! :)
Miguel ColombiaThreads: 3
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 Jul 3, 10, 09:46    #73
Lol the lost tribes of Poland. Where are the other 11?
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 Jul 3, 10, 22:29    #74
Bratwurst Boy:
For their chzechoslovakian slavic brothers who too had been victims of Nazi-Germany?

BB the problem is that as late as 1945 Czechoslovakia and Poland were enemies and Czech army attempted to seize Kłodzko (for you its Glatz) prior to war Poland and Czechoslovakia had their territorial dispute and even earlier then that Czechy aided Germany and the Soviets against Poland.

There wasnt much brotherly love, while the vast majority of Poland was against invading anyone i doubt people grew beards over that (unlike invasion of Hungary by the Soviets for example).
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 Jul 4, 10, 02:00    #75
Chicago Pollock:
There are Blacks in Chicago with POLISH last names


I once had a black client at work, who looked exactly like Chaka Khan. Her last name happened to be Kaminski...

Honk if you love PF :)
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Edited by: hague1cmaeron  Jul 4, 10, 09:07    #76
scrappleton:
The "genocide" that you constantly chirp about was initiated by the British and Spanish.. not the American. Perhaps you suffer from said amnesia yourself. It was the British that literally brought slavery to North America as well. Made the southern planter use them to grow tobacco and cotton. All done for your glorious crown.. just like all the other atrocities that your people commited over the centuries. You may to want to grab a mirror before you wag your limey finger at others.


God talk about myths, the British were the first ones to abolish slavery and they even went as far as confiscating American slave cargo, so the silly yanks hid themselves under different flags. So sorry to break your myth about the land of the free, but the yanks, out of the civilized countries were one of the last to abolish slavery.

And yes its Americans who almost caused the extinction of the natives, not the Brits, so let go of your myth.
pawianThreads: 80
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 Jul 21, 11, 10:05    #77
Did you know that wings on Polish winged hussars` backs are a myth in its largest part?

That is the typical image of a Polish hussar which got stuck in popular opinion:

d



According to a Polish historian, a typical hussar looked like that:
f



Facts:


-most hussars didn`t use wings


-if they did, it wasn`t in combat, but on parades. And it was just one wing.


-the parade wing wasn`t attached to hussar`s back but to the saddle.
d

-instead of wings, hussars used feathers attached to their shields, helmets, horses` heads etc.

-nearly all hussar armours kept in museums today had their wing gear installed in 19 century. Simply speaking, most were forged. :):):)

-wings were attached to hussars` backs by Polish patriotic painters who needed a symbolic image of Poland fighting enemies. With wings, hussars looked like archangels in paintings.

A long but informative article in Polish:
http://ioh.pl/artykuly/pokaz/legenda-skrzydlatych-husarzy--historia-fa kty-i-mity,1055/
Monia  Jul 21, 11, 11:00    #78
pawian
 For a nice start, Haiti.

So, what exactly are you going to prove , why did you say " nice " . For me, it holds an ironic connotation , does it for you ?


Loss is that in Poland it is noted that the legions were involved in the suppression of liberation movements in countries such as Italy and Haiti. Poles fought for their own independence, however, suppressing the liberation movements of other nations in the service of Napoleon.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legiony_Polskie_we_W%C5%82oszech

If you think, that we as the nation, mangle our history, the answer is , for sure, we do not, since in the quoted passage, as well as in school textbooks, it is mentioned about it .

Next , please !
Monia  Jul 21, 11, 11:22    #79
Oh I have noticed that , and as an evidence you`ve put some scribble contained in a blog of Mr. Who Knows Him, anyway?

A very good source to support your argument.

It just shows, how ignorant this Mr. Who Knows Him is .
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 Jul 21, 11, 11:37    #80
Monia
 If you think, that we as the nation, mangle our history, the answer is , for sure, we do not, since in the quoted passage, as well as in school textbooks, it is mentioned about it .

All Nations colour history to suit themselves that's why there is more than one book (and no it’s not for ease of carrying).
Monia  Jul 21, 11, 11:50    #81
Especially, if the news is spread by a person not having any connection with the Polish, as Mr. Who Knows Him.
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 Jul 21, 11, 11:54    #82
Barney
 All Nations colour history to suit themselves that's why there is more than one book (and no it’s not for ease of carrying).

And why some Poles insist that none of the inconvenient facts from their history are in the least bit factual.
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 Jul 21, 11, 12:39    #83
Monia
 Oh I have noticed that , and as an evidence you`ve put some scribble contained in a blog of Mr. Who Knows Him, anyway?

A very good source to support your argument.

It just shows, how ignorant this Mr. Who Knows Him is .

Who Witold Głębowicz the author?

I don't have time (or knowledge) to read the piece now. I will say however that there seems to be a reasonable bibliography and Pawian doesn’t have a history of posting rubbish. It’s hard to assume that the author his sources and the poster Pawian are all wrong.

I'm not a horseman (except Arkle) but I would imagine these "wings" would make it difficult to manoeuvre in battle.
Monia  Jul 21, 11, 14:10    #84
Barney
 Who Witold Głębowicz the author?


If he believes in such myths , well , such a myth is created by his ignorance and lack of Polish history knowledge ( the blog`s autor ).

More about Hussars :

Hussars its success largely owed ​​their armour . As it turns out so, hussar saber was reaching the peak of this kind in the world. Wojciech Zablocki-eminent Polish fencer, multiple world champion and Olympic medalist and multi-edged weapons scientist did not hesitate to call it the best saber battle that emerged in human history. Add the falls here, that sword was only a creation of the Polish, formed on the basis of experience gained in the many wars which, unfortunately, the fate of our country is not spared.


An interesting observation of Polish hussars siege of Vienna concluded in writing of Peter Lorraine, "Memoires dun gentilhomme dAlsace Campagne au se reportent Turque." As a military engineer , noted that :

"The splendor of armor and costumes combined with them with a sense of great convenience: many of them are strapped to the saddle at the upper thigh at 4-6 feet long


http://www.husaria.jest.pl/

The above mentioned segment of his writting describes the way the wings were attached !
Do you think that it is very relevant for their superb performance, the way, their wings were attached ?

In my opinion , it was not .

More relevat were their achievements .

Hussars there was almost 3 centuries of their existence . During this time they participated in many battles and skirmishes, that the very mention of them is almost impossible. But to bring more acts of this formation, I have given below a list of battles, in which the hussars took part in only one decade (years 1600-1610). Of course, the Poles won the battles, and are given below only those of them, where the enemy forces were significantly larger than the Polish.

Date , Place , Nb of Polish troops , The opponent and its number, The ratio ( Poish troops : Enemy)


29-IX-1600 Karks 1200 (?) 3000 Swedes [quote] 1 : 2.5

25-Nov-1600 Cutrea de Argesz 1450 (950) Vlachs ok.9000
1: 6

7-I-1601 Cesis (Kies) 700 3000 Swedes
1: 4.3

23-IV-1601 Kokenhausen (Koknese)3000 (about 1000) 4900 Swedes
1: 1.6

25-IX-1604 White Stone (Paid) 2300 (?) 6000 Swedes
1: 2.6

27-IX-1605 Kircholm 3500 (1450) 11,000 Swedes
1: 3.1

4-VII-1610 Klushino 6800 (5550) Russians ok.35000
1 :about 5

[/quote]

Take a look at the ratio of polish troops to the enemy in the battles under Kircholm , Kies and Klushino , that was something , wasn`t it .
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 Jul 21, 11, 14:49    #85
Monia I'm not disputing that the Hussars were marvellous soldiers winning lots of battles and so on. Did they wear these wings in battle? I doubt it, once I have read the article that Pawian has paraphrased for us, I will have a little more knowledge to ruminate upon.

The thread is about historical myths everyone assumes that the Hussars charged (or whatever) wearing these wings that is a myth the truth is probably that the battles were won wingless. The wings were attached for parade.
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 Jul 21, 11, 15:05    #86
pawian
 Did you know that wings on Polish winged hussars` backs are a myth in its largest part?

Are you certain that there is no truth to the claim that the wings were used in battle to prevent the lassoes of Tartars from encircling the Hussars, and that they were attached to their saddles, so that if lassoes did encircle them they wouldn't be pulled off their horses? Historians, I've read, also claim that the wind whistling through the hussars wings when they charged made an eerie noise that terrified the enemy, and so they were also worn to induce panic in Poland's foes. Do most Polish military historians now agree that the wings were never used in battle?
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 Jul 21, 11, 15:53    #87
Des Essientes
 Historians, I've read, also claim that the wind whistling through the hussars wings when they charged made an eerie noise that terrified the enemy,


i always thought this to be true. it seems 'myth busted'.
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 Jul 21, 11, 16:05    #88
Des Essientes
 Do most Polish military historians now agree that the wings were never used in battle?

Nope, they agree that most probably the wings were used in battle. Opinions wary as to; one wing or two, connected onto the armor of hussar or onto the saddle.
The winds were an element used freely by individual hussar, no uniformity induced by a higher command.
Des Essientes
  Historians, I've read, also claim that the wind whistling through the hussars wings when they charged made an eerie noise that terrified the enemy, and so they were also worn to induce panic in Poland's foes

Nope, not noise, rather their view had a psychological effect on a foe.
That and a fact that all those feathers and tiger skins, supposed to have a magical essence, infusing hussars with predatory spirit of those animals which skins and feathers they wore(bear, wolf, panther, lion; eagle, falcon).
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Edited by: pawian  Jul 21, 11, 16:25    #89
Wroclaw
 Des Essientes
Historians, I've read, also claim that the wind whistling through the hussars wings when they charged made an eerie noise that terrified the enemy,


i always thought this to be true. it seems 'myth busted'.



The quoted historian claims that the noise of the battle was so intense that feather whistling was practically unheard.



Ironside
 Nope, they agree that most probably the wings were used in battle.


Quote, please. :):):)

And remember, the story of hussaria is 150 years old. Which battle do you mean? :):):):)




Ironside
 Nope, not noise, rather their view had a psychological effect on a foe.
That and a fact that all those feathers and tiger skins, supposed to have a magical essence, infusing hussars with predatory spirit of those animals which skins and feathers they wore(bear, wolf, panther, lion; eagle, falcon).



Yes.


Monia
 More relevat were their achievements .


Just like your achievements. :):):):):)
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 Jul 21, 11, 17:25    #90
Monia
 So, what exactly are you going to prove , why did you say " nice " . For me, it holds an ironic connotation , does it for you ?

No,you are just a touch paranoid and not nearly as proficient in English as you like to think.

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