PolishForums.com
POLAND . The Unofficial Guide
 Unanswered | Archives
Poland Information in English Witamy, Guest | PF Members | Gold Members

Polish Forums / History of Poland /

Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński.


page 1 of 4:  1  2  3  4  Next » posts: 103

Polonius3Threads: 1,005
Posts: 4,834
Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: Moderator  Feb 13, 12, 12:47    #1
Some post-commie scumballs have again defaced the Kraków memorial to the First Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński who supplied American wtih the Evil Empire's secret plans. I doubt if Michnik was actually involved physically, but it was his rag that has called Kukliński a traitor and Jaruzelski a hero, and apparently there are those in Poland who actually believe the crapola Gazeta Wybiórcza publiishes..Apparently Michnik has never heard of Konrad Wallenrod.
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 12:54    #2
Polonius3:
Kukliński a traitor

If the cap fits. Perhaps you think Kim Philby and the Julius Rosenberg weren't traitors either.
Polonius3:
I doubt if Michnik was actually involved physically

At least you've got one part of your diatribe right.
Polonius3:
Apparently Michnik has never heard of Konrad Wallenrod.

I doubt that.
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 13:21    #3
Polonius3:
Some post-commie scumballs

Thats about right !
Polonius3Threads: 1,005
Posts: 4,834
Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 15:18    #4
Workiing against the enemies of your country's freedom, in this case the Soviet-installed PRL regime, is not tresason. It is heroism!
kondziorThreads: 2
Posts: 441
Joined: Oct 16, 09 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 15:50    #5
Being a spy is the exact antithesis of heroism.
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 16:09    #6
kondzior:
Being a spy is the exact antithesis of heroism.

Really ? What is your definition of heroism?
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 16:19    #7
The guy took a solemn oath. Then broke it.
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 16:28    #8
So he was a traitor to the traitors. He didn't betrayed Poland or Poles. Jaruzelski and Kiszczak did and they are traitors.

Traitor to PRL it is nothing to be ashame of!
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 16:32    #9
An oath is an oath. No ifs or buts.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Feb 13, 12, 16:35    #10
Polonius3:
It is heroism!

Poles disagree with you: more Poles consider Kuklinski to be a traitor than consider him a hero.
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 17:38    #11
JonnyM:
An oath is an oath. No ifs or buts.

There is not universal traitor's concept.
He was the traitor to PRL - good !
Harry:
Poles disagree with you: more Poles consider Kuklinski to be a traitor than consider him a hero.

Even if that were true it doesn't make it so!
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 17:40    #12
There is however a universal principal that a soldier does not betray his vow. Ever.
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 17:46    #13
JonnyM:
Ever.

Thats what they say but in a real life its happens often enough.
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 17:54    #14
And such people are regarded as traitors and punished. Bradley Manning probably thought he was doing the right thing too, as did Burgess & Maclean, Rosenberg etc.
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 18:08    #15
von Stauffenberg ....
I see your point but I Disagree
Poles too often has been faced with the bad choices only
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Feb 13, 12, 18:12    #16
JonnyM:
There is however a universal principal that a soldier does not betray his vow. Ever.


Especially as the Polish Army was well regarded all the way through to 1981.
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 18:25    #17
delphiandomine:
the Polish Army w

Soviet Army ! Polish branch of the Red Army
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		Edited by: JonnyM  Feb 13, 12, 18:39    #18
Very different. And even if it hadn't been, that is no excuse to betray his country or his comrades.

Von Stauffenberg, by the way was a very different kettle of fish.
ShawnHThreads: 9
Posts: 3,056
Joined: Jul 2, 09 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 18:45    #19
JonnyM:
There is however a universal principal that a soldier does not betray his vow. Ever.

I can see that being moreso true in a volunteer army vs. conscript.

Honest question: What is the selection / vetting process to become an officer in a conscript army?
Polonius3Threads: 1,005
Posts: 4,834
Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 18:48    #20
PRL was a captive nation, an illicit, bastard, puppet state so anyone who opposed it was a hero.
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 18:55    #21
And it was the state that Kuklinski swore his solemn oath to. End of.
boletusThreads: 47
Posts: 1,095
Joined: Apr 13, 11 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 18:58    #22
JonnyM:
There is however a universal principal that a soldier does not betray his vow. Ever.

European history provides quite a few examples when a professional mercenary's vow was broken by condottieri at will. Mamertines anyone? Machiavelli describes many such cases: desertion, joining forces with enemy, switching sides.

I vaguely remember mercenary betrayals taking place during wars of Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy against Lorraine and Suisse, and his death at Nancy.

Polish allies at times: Crimean Tatars and Cossacks were also prone to betrayal.

General Patrick Gordon, a venerated Scottish mercenary, after already switching sides from the Polish to the Muscovite one (honourably though), was almost given a deadly blow to his division during 1695 campaign against Turks, because a German engineer betrayed to Turks the weak points of the Muscovite lines.

So it looks that there is a difference between romantic theory and practice.
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 19:05    #23
Kuklinski wasn't a mercenary. He was an officer in the army of his country who betrayed his vow.

There are indeed many such examples. Most of them treason.
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 20:10    #24
JonnyM:
Von Stauffenberg, by the way was a very different kettle of fish.

Really ? he took an oath no buts, no ifs !
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 21:07    #25
And the oath he took was to Germany. Not to a madman. Simple as.
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 21:15    #26
JonnyM:
And the oath he took was to Germany. Not to a madman. Simple as.

Wehrmacht oath

Die Vereidigung der Wehrmacht auf Adolf Hitler, 2.8.1934

"Ich schwöre bei Gott diesen heiligen Eid, daß ich dem Führer des Deutschen Reiches und Volkes Adolf Hitler, dem Oberbefehlshaber der Wehrmacht, unbedingten Gehorsam leisten und als tapferer Soldat bereit sein will, jederzeit für diesen Eid mein Leben einzusetzen."

The Wehrmacht Oath of Loyalty to Adolf Hitler, 2 August 1934

"I swear by God this sacred oath that to the Leader of the German empire and people, Adolf Hitler, supreme commander of the armed forces, I shall render unconditional obedience and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared to give my life for this oath."
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,443
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 21:17    #27
Ironside:
I swear by God

By God? I thought The Nazis denounced religion like the Soviets did.
Polonius3Threads: 1,005
Posts: 4,834
Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 21:48    #28
Apparently all those PF-ers who are tripping over thermselves trying to show how sacred and iniviolable an oath or vow is to be are just doing so because they enjoy polemics. Many of the very same people hypocitically let off the hook and make excuses for the bastards who take an oath and then break it for convnience sake to get divorced. At least Kukliński was motivated by higher values, the freeedom of his homeland, and was willing to put himself and his familyat jeopardy to serve that cause.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Feb 13, 12, 22:07    #29
Polonius3:
At least Kukliński was motivated by higher values, the freeedom of his homeland, and was willing to put himself and his familyat jeopardy to serve that cause.


Are you sure he wasn't motivated by a hell of a lot of cash?

As a high profile turncoat, he certainly would have enjoyed considerable....financial privilege. Betraying the Polish army and the legitimate Polish state for a few dollars is deplorable.
pantslessThreads: 1
Posts: 177
Joined: Feb 1, 10 ♂ 		 Feb 13, 12, 22:10    #30
PennBoy:
By God? I thought The Nazis denounced religion like the Soviets did.


Not very surprising, but nonetheless interesting is how many people base their belief system and general worldly knowledge on facts that end with "But, I thought"...

Dare to take the next step?

page 1 of 4:  1  2  3  4  Next »

Home / History of Poland / Unanswered [this forum] | Similar


Similar discussions:

Anyone know the name, if true... .... Polish Royal heir  Lech Kaczynski - was he a good leader?


Random: What is wrong with Poznan?

Only registered and logged-in users may post here. Please log in or register.


60 [Guests - 39 / Members - 21] users on live forums now


Home | Unanswered | Archives | Random | Statistics Time in Poland: 21:25 / May 26

About Us | Contact Us | Rules, Privacy | Poland Advertising
© 2005-12 PolishForums.com