Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński.

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Edited by: delphiandomine Feb 15, 12, 17:55 #91

JonnyM:

If anything, the 'memorial' is most likely to have been defaced by army veterans.

Quite possible, given the nationalist slogans painted. In fact, it's easy to see why Kuklinski could be hated by a cross section of Polish society..

Harry:

Perhaps you can go into detail about the people in positions of power in Poland in the 1990s and 2000s who were KGB cronies and co-workers?

MediaWatch really does seem to struggle

What is it with people talking about the "Enemy Within" who are totally unable to back it up with actual names? It's exactly what rabid Kaczynski fans do - they know "The truth" but they won't actually tell us.

boletus:

The article is actually criticizing Kukliński for engaging in the politics of the Right during his visit to Poland in 1998

The amount of socialists who became distinctly Right in their social politics after 1989 is very curious, actually. It's even repeated in the vast amount of PiS supporters who want socialist policies yet who claim to be right wing. It does make me wonder if Poland had been allowed to pursue a specifically Polish type of communism (hard right wing socially, hard left wing economically), perhaps it would still be around.

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,443 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Feb 15, 12, 18:15 #92
Polonius3: Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński If Poland's independence was at stake I'd understand that, but he basically did it for money and who knows might have done it to a free democratic Poland also.

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Feb 15, 12, 19:16 #93

delphiandomine:

In fact, it's easy to see why Kuklinski could be hated by a cross section of Polish society..

Why he could be hated ?

PennBoy:

but he basically did it for money

Well, do you have sources to back it up ? I think that he did it for everything but monies!
Not everybody is like your father or you, you should rememberer that!

JonnyM:

You do realise this is a discussion forum?

And we are .......?yes, bingo, ...discussing things and points of view.

JonnyM:

t seems you think the idea of treason depends on the politics of the countries involved.

I would say it is all depends on circumstances - nobody is a lone island.

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Feb 15, 12, 23:37 #94

PennBoy:

If Poland's independence was at stake I'd understand that, but he basically did it for money and who knows might have done it to a free democratic Poland also.

An interesting question - did he work in any way for the USA after 1989? I suspect we won't find out the answer to that, but it could be interesting to look at potential links between him and the AWS government in Poland. As I recall - the Americans were pushing the parties into the AWS coalition - and his visit to Poland (with his sudden right-wing feelings)..hmm.

Enough there to make you wonder if he really was on the Polish side, at least.

Ironside:

Why he could be hated ?

From a left wing point of view, he could be seen as a spy and traitor who betrayed Poland for the sake of easy cash.

From a right wing point of view, he betrayed Poland as an very senior army officer - and the army was always strongly associated (not so much now, I don't think?) with the identity of Poland. He was also (obviously) a very senior communist - so enough reason to hate him from a right wing perspective.

Ironside:

Well, do you have sources to back it up ? I think that he did it for everything but monies!

I can only say one thing - his son suffered a mysterious accident while sailing. Sailing isn't exactly a poor man's hobby...

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Feb 15, 12, 23:51 #95

PennBoy:

If Poland's independence was at stake I'd understand that, but he basically did it for money and who knows might have done it to a free democratic Poland also.

I'd go with that, I think he did it for money.

Having said that

delphiandomine:

Sailing isn't exactly a poor man's hobby...

Here I beg to differ, both my daughters sail and the younger fences doesn’t cost me more than about £100 per year, cheaper than most sports club. Just pay the club fees and use their opis, they provide the safety boat life jackets etc. OK when they get older it will cost but not too much.

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 ♂ [Moderator]	Feb 16, 12, 22:59 #96
delphiandomine: Sailing isn't exactly a poor man's hobby... Barney: Here I beg to differ, me too. sailing was one of the main summer holiday activities at one time. plenty people are qualified to sail on the lakes.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Feb 17, 12, 00:15 #97
Wroclaw: me too. sailing was one of the main summer holiday activities at one time. plenty people are qualified to sail on the lakes. But that's in Poland - isn't it quite the sport for the well-to-do in the US and Britain?

MediaWatchThreads: 31 Posts: 1,305 Joined: Aug 30, 08 ♂	Edited by: MediaWatch Feb 18, 12, 05:35 #98
Harry: Secondly I owe Poland no loyalty at all Well I appreciate your honesty on you saying you have no loyalty towards Poland, even though you have chose to live in Poland.

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	Feb 18, 12, 19:57 #99
kondzior: Being a spy is the exact antithesis of heroism. risking your own life and the lives of your familiy for some greater good is heroism pure I guess

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Feb 18, 12, 20:05 #100

Barney:

The Catholic Church certainly knew the way it was going to go before the "Split" in 1936. Their previous collaboration can be compared to the present scandal over child rapist priests; protect the institution not the faith. Reformed churches had a much more principled approach in general.

to Hitler?? you must be joking, just look at where NSDAP won the least votes in 1933 - the catholic regions

BarneyThreads: 16 Posts: 1,630 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Feb 19, 12, 02:34 #101
gumishu: to Hitler?? you must be joking, just look at where NSDAP won the least votes in 1933 - the catholic regions Open a history book but read this first then do a bit of reading. Seriously this is stuff for 16 year olds, very basic knowledge.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Feb 19, 12, 02:37 #102
gumishu: risking your own life and the lives of your familiy for some greater good is heroism pure I guess But was it for the greater good, or was it for other reasons? If he was simply upset with the invasion of Czechoslovakia and so on, he could easily have defected to the West and left it at that.

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Feb 19, 12, 08:14 #103

delphiandomine:

But was it for the greater good, or was it for other reasons?

for what other reasons? would you risk your own life and the lives of those most loved ones for you just because you were offered a couple of million bucks?

Kukliński as a high ranking officer had access to Soviet war plans with NATO after being disenchanted with the communism and Soviet rule over eastern Europe he started thinking about the fate of Poland in case of the East-West war - and he realised Poland would become atomic wasteland - he must have thought about ways to prevent it and figured he would best achieve it giving providing all top secret Soviet plans he could lay his hands on to Americans - at this moment he knew very well that he was risking his own life and the lives of his family - but he was smart enough to avoid detection and to flee to the west just in time - had he thought only about himself he would have deftected without conspiring (he fed Americans various Soviet plans for good couple of years AFAIK)

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