Question on szlachta clan admission

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Jul 18, 07, 04:49 #1

As it is written in many researches untill the first half of 17 century szlachta clans could admit new members.
Can anybody explain:
1. Was such admission possible in case of a non-szlachtic before man?
2. Did such admission require King and Sejm confirmation or the mere fact of admission was sifficient for nobilitation?
3. I read nothing about clan structures, about any clan organization in post-knight period (since 16 century). Did clans really have organization? What were the structure and ways to elect major clan representatives?
4. Were the clans common with Lithania as in Crown?

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Jul 18, 07, 05:22 #2

Topic attached on merging:
Question on Uniate szlachta

I guess such question is more convenient for some forums in Belarus or West Ukraine but such question is unfortunately nearly unknown for example in Belarus today.
By chance, maybe somebody knows here...

As far as I know there were nearly no magnate Uniate families exept count Szepticki family. Is thet truth. Are some magnate families known that were Uniate and later became Roman Catholic?
In Belarus (Assembly of Belorussian szlachta) I was told that among little szlachta the percentage was in Litwa approximately equal to 30 percent? But no correspondent names were mentioned. Are such families known?
It is well known that Uniate clergy was from szlachta. But a detailed information is aslo unknown by me

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂	Aug 29, 07, 15:30 #3
Quoting: truhlei Is thet truth. No idea. I like history but don't know such detail.

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Jan 20, 10, 03:18 #4

I suppose it would been possible, back in the good old days 1 had to bring some family members (2 maybe) to court (maybe) and testify they were in family with that person or from the same heritige.

Although if someone joins the family it should be possible to knight that person as a member of a noble family then. (think first nobles weren't nobles at birth)
So logiclly there should be a chance for that, but I am not sure myself :)

Most of it are only theories from my side

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Jan 20, 10, 22:43 #5

truhlei:

2. Did such admission require King and Sejm confirmation or the mere fact of admission was sifficient for nobilitation?

I have learnt that from the late 16th century the Sejm had to confirm nobilitations (a visible proof that the king had less power here than the parliament, actually.) In some cases, kings nobilitated individuals, mostly foreigners, even after that time, but they had to use certain diplomatic tricks to perform the task.

truhlei:

2. I read nothing about clan structures, about any clan organization in post-knight period (since 16 century). Did clans really have organization? What were the structure and ways to elect major clan representatives?

I do think that the perceived analogy with old Gaelic societies of Ireland or Scotland (clans) has some limits, I have never heart about formal structures of Polish or Lithuanian 'clans'.
The analogy has some sense especially when we think about large groups of people bearing the same name and the same coat of arms, but in fact not related. But it does not work if you think about 'chieftains' as such, especially that Celtic chieftains often were descendant of local kings, all of them subjected to high kings. No trace of something like Brehon law in Poland. Also hereditary historians and physicians, etc. Celtic clan structures. I think it might be interesting to see a comparison, for example between Poland and old Ireland, made by a professional historian, though.
Maybe someone correct me, but I think that local sejmiki used to choose local administrative or legal representatives (/)

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Jan 20, 10, 23:09 #6

The clan structure in Scotland had regional variations - some clans in the west highlands claimed direct descendancy from Norse or Celtic kings, others, mainly lowland clans were formed by warlords.

Clan members paid rent to the chief ( landowner )and in return for the benefits and security of being in the clan,they were loyal to the cause of the clan when the Crann Tara was sent round.

Some smaller clans ( septs ) were had allegiances with larger clans for political reasons.

The clan tartans and badges were mostly a 19th century invention.

Having a Scottish surname gives a sense of belonging and kinship.

Dont know how this compares to Polish clan system.

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Jan 20, 10, 23:16 #7

truhlei:

Was such admission possible in case of a non-szlachtic before man?

such admission were possible but not common as in practice it supposed to be confirmation that nobleman was indeed nobleman.

truhlei:

Did such admission require King and Sejm confirmation or the mere fact of admission was sufficient for nobilitation?

No it didn't! Because in theory it wasn't admission but confirmation of one's status!

truhlei:

I read nothing about clan structures, about any clan organization in post-knight period (since 16 century). Did clans really have organization? What were the structure and ways to elect major clan representatives?

there wasn't structures pre se, it was more relaxed association or brotherhood, any formal structures were based on territorial organization of Poland ie. administration were governed by local nobleman but it was working for all local szlachta.
Generally speaking so called clan structures were only serving function of supporting their members.

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Jan 21, 10, 03:03 #8

truhlei:

1. Was such admission possible in case of a non-szlachtic before man?

Yes and untill late 16th century was practised for great feats on the field of battle, contributions to science, law or economy.

truhlei:

2. Did such admission require King and Sejm confirmation or the mere fact of admission was sifficient for nobilitation?

Depending on the period it required King or Sejm recognition, Hetmans could also ennoble people as well as local sejmiks.

Sometimes a combination of approvals mentioned above was required, all depending on the historical period and circumstances.

truhlei:

3. I read nothing about clan structures, about any clan organization in post-knight period (since 16 century). Did clans really have organization? What were the structure and ways to elect major clan representatives?

Families had a fairly straightforward elders->the rest. The elders and most influential family members formed a council that decided on various matters (in case of large and powerfull noble/magnate families).

truhlei:

4. Were the clans common with Lithania as in Crown?

Generally all forms of nobility were more common in the Crown as it was much wealthier and more then six times as populous.

I will provide detailed info on Uniates tomorrow i'm too tired to browse my stuff now.

enkiduThreads: 18 Posts: 983 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 04:13 #9
Gee... Clan admission in Poland? Like some organisation with established structure and discipline? Nope. Not in old Poland.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Jan 21, 10, 11:45 #10
enkidu: Like some organisation with established structure and discipline? Nope. Not in old Poland. Actually yes in Poland, why do you think "czarna polewka" and other traditional ways of denial and acceptance into various positions (fiance, new noble etc) exist?

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Jan 21, 10, 14:34 #11

Sokrates:

Yes and untill late 16th century was practised for great feats on the field of battle, contributions to science, law or economy.

Why don't you read OP question with understanding/
?
he is asking about organization of noblemen with the same coats of arms.

and by the way there wasn't clans structures in 16th century Poland.
What you are presenting here is system of connection and social interaction between noblemen and extremely rich noblemen magnates - it had nothing to do with clans and Scotland but is more similar to Rome and patron - client system.

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Jan 22, 10, 12:15 #12

Ironside:

he is asking about organization of noblemen with the same coats of arms.

Is he? Where? Because if you mean that the same coat of arms meant that you were a part of the clan thats rubbish, take my family, our coat of arms is Rogala and we share it with what? Sixty other families?

Ironside:

and by the way there wasn't clans structures in 16th century Poland.

Family structure which bore great similarities to a clan structure and yes i do not mean Scottish clans but then again these are not defining of the term Clan either.

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Jan 22, 10, 14:03 #13

Sokrates:

Is he? Where? Because if you mean that the same coat of arms meant that you were a part of the clan thats rubbish, take my family, our coat of arms is Rogala and we share it with what? Sixty other families?

Asking about clans and projecting the way Scottish clans were on Poland's noblemen.
I have taken into account his origin and you are only confusing the issue with your interpretations.

Sokrates:

Family structure which bore great similarities to a clan structure and yes i do not mean Scottish clans but then again these are not defining of the term Clan either.

If we are talking about structures of magnates family and household is not enough to call it clan, if we talking about connection of the magnates and noblemen there still no enough similarities to call it clan, its all more like patron -client relationship much alike ancient Rome.
You may think about Polish "klan" but it is something quite different.

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Jan 23, 10, 04:11 #14

Sokrates:

take my family, our coat of arms is Rogala and we share it with what? Sixty other families?

I thought it was Dziurka od Bulki coat of arms ;)
Why would sixty families want to share something like that? Don`t be ridiculous.
Btw, rogali (croissants) are said to come from the Turks who made pastry moon-like to emulate their symbol. Maybe, there is the root of your ancestry. Check it, you never know. It is possible that at battle of Vienna your ancestor was working at harem as a keeper (if you know what I mean). But again, how then you came around? It is a complicated heritage issue, Socki. Try gene analysis, might be of great help and reveal many secrets. Good luck ;)

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Jan 23, 10, 11:08 #15
Nathan: I thought You're just jealous that my ancestors lived in a manor and yours in a peasant hut, who knows Nathan maybe your grandfathers were plowing my grandfathers fields? Ukrainians make such good serfs:)

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09 ♂	Jan 23, 10, 16:28 #16
Sokrates: who knows My grandfathers plowed your grandfathers in the battlefield (when they didn't flee, which as you know happened very rarely) and your grandmothers on the fields of ardent love ;) This is another way you might have come around with your bułka or rogal ;)

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