Questions about Polish borders, Galicia and Cossacks.

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Jun 4, 10, 13:29 #1

Can anyone tell me of the history of Poland when our land contained Ukraine/Belarus etc and further east/south. Why is it that Poland is much smaller than it once was.

2. Why is Galicia now in Ukraine?

3. I've ready many places that where Polish Cossacks who are obviously lesser known that Ukranian/russian cossacks. Can any one tell me of them because there doesn't seem to be much info about them.

Thanks

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Jun 4, 10, 13:34 #2

DomPolski:

Why is it that Poland is much smaller than it once was.

Because it was an Empire.
Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth

DomPolski:

2. Why is Galicia now in Ukraine?

Perhaps you will find this youtube video interesting:
Polska 990 - 2009

DomPolski:

3. I've ready many places that where Polish Cossacks who are obviously lesser known that Ukranian/russian cossacks. Can any one tell me of them because there doesn't seem to be much info about them.

Polish–Cossack–Tatar War (1666–1671)

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Edited by: hague1cmaeron Jun 4, 10, 14:11 #3

DomPolski:

Can anyone tell me of the history of Poland when our land contained Ukraine/Belarus etc and further east/south. Why is it that Poland is much smaller than it once was.

2. Why is Galicia now in Ukraine?

3. I've ready many places that where Polish Cossacks who are obviously lesser known that Ukranian/russian cossacks. Can any one tell me of them because there doesn't seem to be much info about them.

Thanks

Galicia was always predominantly Ukrainian-a people who until very recently did not identify themselves with a nation state, the word Ukraina is a Polish word meaning borderland, or on the edge. The Poles in the Ukraine mainly consisted of the landed gentry and town folk. The Ukrainians predominately consisted of serfs and peasants.

Poland is a smaller country now because of internal politics, ravenous upstart countries like Prussia and Russia, all the different wars, and a recent urge for independence by countries like the Ukraine and Belarus. And a general combination of these things over a long period of time.

Polish Cossacks are essentially Ukrainian cossacks who fought for Poland, they were very fickle, they essentially sold their services to the highest bidder regardless of nationality.

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Edited by: Mr Grunwald Jun 4, 10, 14:28 #4

DomPolski:

2. Why is Galicia now in Ukraine?

That is (I think) because Stalin wanted Galicia to go to the Ukrainians (The Socialistic republic) he had "promised" them it. I am not sure if it was eally like that or if it was because of his imperial ambitions, it may have happened he wanted to use divide and conquest type of strategy since the area had the second largest Polish city in entire pre war Poland. If that was the plan he failed, although Galicia was originally made (the name) by the Austrian Empire. Before that it was named Podolie I think.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_%28Eastern_Europe%29][/url]

There you should find something about Galicia :)

The region of what later became known as Galicia appears to have been incorporated, in large part, into the Empire of Great Moravia. It is first attested in the Primary Chronicle in A.D. 981, when Vladimir the Great of Kievan Rus' took over the Red Ruthenian cities in his military campaign on the border with Poland.

In the following century, the area shifted briefly to Poland (A.D. 1018 to 1031) and then back to Kievan Rus'. As one of many successors to Kievan Rus', the Principality of Halych existed from 1087 to 1200, when Roman the Great finally managed to unite it with Volhynia in the state of Halych-Volhynia.

Despite anti-Mongol campaigns of Danylo of Halych, who was crowned the king of Halych-Volhynia, his state occasionally paid tribute to the Golden Horde. Danylo moved his capital from Halych to Kholm, and his son Lev moved it to Lviv. Danylo's dynasty also attempted to gain papal and broader support in Europe for an alliance against the Mongols, but proved unable of competing with the rising powers of centralised Great Duchy of Lithuania and Poland. In the 1340s, the Rurikid dynasty died out, and the area passed to King Casimir III of Poland. But the sister state of Volhynia, together with Kiev fell under Lithuanian control.

Thereafter, the region comprised a Polish possession divided into a number of voivodeships. This began an era of German eastward expansion and Polish settlement among the Ruthenian population.Armenian and Jewish immigration to the region also occurred in large numbers. Numerous castles were built during this time and some new cities were founded: Stanisławów (Stanyslaviv in Ukrainian, now Ivano-Frankivsk) and Krystynopol (now Chervonohrad).

"Galicia was many times subjected to incursions by Tartars and Ottoman Turkey in the XVI and XVII centuries, however they were driven out, devastated during the Khmelnytsky Uprising (1648–1654), the Russo-Polish War (1654–1667), and inconvenienced by Swedish invasions during The Deluge (1655–1660), and the Swedes returned during the Great Northern War of the early 18th century."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_%28Eastern_Europe%29

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Jun 4, 10, 14:38 #5
DomPolski: 2. Why is Galicia now in Ukraine? One more thing I recently discovered is that Galicia is a Celtic name. From when the Celts occupied that territory thousands of years ago.

aphrodisiacThreads: 22 Posts: 3,998 Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀	Jun 4, 10, 14:41 #6
SeanBM: One more thing I recently discovered is that Galicia is a Celtic name. any links?

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Edited by: SeanBM Jun 4, 10, 14:42 #7
aphrodisiac: any links? The Celts in Poland. The one in Spain is better known for it's Celtic roots.

aphrodisiacThreads: 22 Posts: 3,998 Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀	Jun 4, 10, 15:53 #8
thanks Sean:)

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Edited by: Sokrates Jun 7, 10, 01:43 #9

hague1cmaeron:

Polish Cossacks are essentially Ukrainian cossacks who fought for Poland, they were very fickle, they essentially sold their services to the highest bidder regardless of nationality.

Dude please stop, lesson in Polish History for you.

Cossacks were not an ethnic term, ever.

Eastern Ukraine, Crimea and adjoining lands that are now Belarussia and Western Russia were a Polish frontier exactly the same as american Wild West.

Cities were few and far between, there were vast forests and steppes, whenever a peasant tried to escape servitude or criminal avoided justice he went there to live "po kozacku" Cossacks were a social class in Poland, mercenary soldiers who normally lived in fortified camps or communes hunted, farmed and fished and in times of war were employed by Poland as light infantry/light cavalry.

As such Cossacks were Ruthenian (no such things as Ukraine or Ukrainian in that period) Polish, Russian, Tartar even.

Polish Cossacks were native Poles who joined the Cossack community and there was a LOT of them (at least as many as Ruthenian Cossacks).

hague1cmaeron:

Galicia was always predominantly Ukrainian

No it was not, please refrain from posting bullsh*t about our history that you obviously dont know.

DomPolski:

Can any one tell me of them because there doesn't seem to be much info about them.

Thats because of a certain phenomenon that took part in Ukraine, social elites adopted Polish culture (nobles, princes, merchants, soldiers etc) while peasants typically entered the ruthenian culture circle, it is estimated that at least 20% of all Cossacks were native ethnic Poles but after a generation their kids (being Cossack was hereditary after a fashion) lost their Polish roots.

Also there was no difference in the lifestyle of different Cossack ethnicitie, they all joined the Sich fortified camps and followed the same code.

These people were part peasants, part farmers, part pirates (they raided Turkish coastal trade regularly), part mercenaries, part bandits, by XVI century they became trained professional mercenaries for Poland.

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Edited by: hague1cmaeron Jun 7, 10, 12:05 #10

Sokrates:

Dude please stop, lesson in Polish History for you.

I know my history very well thank you very much. I am merely trying to truncate about 500 years of history into one sentence you silly man! There is nothing that you have mentioned that I don't know about, or that contradicts me in any way.

Sokrates:

No it was not, please refrain from posting bullsh*t about our history that you obviously dont know.

Yes it was you stupid man, its elites after being taken over by the golden horde followed later by the Lithuanians and finally by Poland into the commonwealth, certainly considered themselves to be Poles, but the peasants were Ukrainian. And as I have mentioned national consciousness came to them later (under Austro-Hungarian rule)

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Jun 7, 10, 12:24 #11
DomPolski: Why is Galicia now in Ukraine? Because in the curse of war between Germans and their recent ally Soviets, the former took over Poland territory. Soviet Russia and by Stalin arbitrary decision Polish borders became what their are now - that is the reason that Galicja is outside Polish borders.

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Edited by: Sokrates Jun 7, 10, 12:54 #12

hague1cmaeron:

I know my history very well thank you very much.

F*ck yes you're a history major, the Maregea kind of history major who thinks Columbus discovered England:)

hague1cmaeron:

I am merely trying to truncate about 500 years of history into one sentence you silly man!

Germans are Nazis ( i'm merely trying to truncate 500 years of history into one sentence) you got the point?

hague1cmaeron:

its elites after being taken over by the golden horde followed later by the Lithuanians and finally by Poland into the commonwealth,

hague1cmaeron:

I know my history very well thank you very much

Another "history major" redneck, Ukraine was never taken over by Lithuanians, ever.

Lithuanians were present in todays Belarus, Ukraine presented by the Red Ruś was incorporated into Poland in 1340 and never had anything to do with Lithuanians, neither did Ukraine at large, it was since mid XIV century a strictly Polish dominion never having any Lithuanian influence whatsoever.

hague1cmaeron:

but the peasants were Ukrainian.

The peasants considered themselves subjects of any local Duchy or city such as Duchy Halicko-Włodziemierska the word "Ukrainian" in the national context does not appear in any text untill 400 years later.

Also the Cossacks were not peasants and peasantry was rarely their initial recruiting ground, the portion of the Cossack armies composed of peasantry was called "Czerń".

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Edited by: hague1cmaeron Jun 8, 10, 05:29 #13

Sokrates:

Another "history major" redneck, Ukraine was never taken over by Lithuanians, ever.

Lithuanians were present in todays Belarus, Ukraine presented by the Red Ruś was incorporated into Poland in 1340 and never had anything to do with Lithuanians, neither did Ukraine at large, it was since mid XIV century a strictly Polish dominion never having any Lithuanian influence whatsoever.

They defeated the Ukrainians who were subject to the golden horde you fool.

In the mid-14th century, Galicia-Volhynia was subjugated by Casimir III of Poland, while the heartland of Rus', including Kiev, fell under the Gediminas of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania after the Battle on the Irpen' River. Following the 1386 Union of Krevo, a dynastic union between Poland and Lithuania, much of what became northern Ukraine was controlled by the increasingly Slavicised local Lithuanian nobles as part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

By 1569, the Union of Lublin formed the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and a significant part of Ukrainian territory was moved from Lithuanian rule to the Polish administration, as it was transferred to the Polish Crown. Much upper class of Polish Ruthenia converted to Catholicism and became indistinguishable from the Polish nobility.

See made a fool of you so now what?

Sokrates:

Germans are Nazis ( i'm merely trying to truncate 500 years of history into one sentence) you got the point?

What are you on about you silly fool, I am not German I am polish you idiot!

And unlike you I have read the the history of the Ukraine from both a Polish and a Ukrainian perspective.

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Jun 8, 10, 06:49 #14

I am learning about the cossacks now. Its interesting, in fact the Poles employed the cossacks to defend the country. But then screwed them over by not paying them, so they went out to Ukrainian land and settled there. Not to mention there are plenty of different cossacks.

As for why Poland is a lot smaller. Well it all has to do the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact and the Yalta conference. Instead of giving Poland its territory which it had during the interwar years, the Soviet Union pushed the borders of Poland westward which was German territory.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Jun 8, 10, 16:49 #15
SRK85: I am learning about the cossacks now. do you ?

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Jun 8, 10, 18:32 #16

Poland is much smaller becuase in 1918 pre-partition Poladn was not restored, and Russia under the Treatry of Riga got to hold onto huge swathes of its partition-era acquisitons. In 1939 Hitler adn Stalin split Poland down the middle. The eastern half was absorbed by the USSR and never returned. So we now have a small truncated Poland larger only than Napoleon's Duchy of Warsaw, but a far cry from the First Republic which straddled the European continent from the Black Sea to the Baltic and covered an area of some one million square km.

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Jun 8, 10, 19:26 #17

Polonius3:

Poland is much smaller becuase in 1918 pre-partition Poladn was not restored, and Russia under the Treatry of Riga got to hold onto huge swathes of its partition-era acquisitons. In 1939 Hitler adn Stalin split Poland down the middle. The eastern half was absorbed by the USSR and never returned. So we now have a small truncated Poland larger only than Napoleon's Duchy of Warsaw, but a far cry from the First Republic which straddled the European continent from the Black Sea to the Baltic and covered an area of some one million square km.

What it was? Small extract from wikipedia's article? I thought that we all, regardless our own attitude, know perfect all these facts? Well, thank you none the less, at least it wad quite short retaining considerable portion of my strength to write my own post.

Be grateful, you still managed preserve privaslyandskiy kray. We, we - Russians granted you independance and supplied you with lands.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Jun 8, 10, 19:46 #18
ConstantineK: We, we - Russians granted you independance and supplied you with lands. Keep it to Stalin or you will have a Russo-phobia of a larger magnitude ;p

alxmacThreads: 5 Posts: 43 Joined: Nov 29, 11 ♂	Dec 27, 11, 13:56 #19
Merged: any polish cossacks here? any cossacks on here?

alxmacThreads: 5 Posts: 43 Joined: Nov 29, 11 ♂	Dec 27, 11, 14:15 #20
my grandfather was from poland. part of family were cossacks originally from ukraine

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Mar 15, 12, 09:39 #21

My Grandfather was a Cossack, does that count? I'm trying to find more information on him, but it's been tough going.

At least I have a new 'life saying' -

In the US, sometimes we say (when advising someone not to push you to your 'limit') - "Don't make me go all postal on you!"

I now say, "Don't make me go all Cossack on you!"

LOL!

(I'm a chubby, slightly-older-than-middle-aged woman - which makes this even funnier; at least I think so!)

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