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The restoration of Polish cities from WW2 destruction

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pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Mar 10, 09, 20:29 #31
Harry: One of the reasons that the destruction was more intense is that the edge of the ghetto was pretty much where those photos were taken and the ghetto was to the west of that spot. Yes, today`s Świętokrzyska Street is located in the area where the Ghetto used to be.

eric_the_naveThreads: - Posts: 47 Joined: Jul 27, 07 ♂	Mar 10, 09, 21:02 #32
Why wasn't Krakow destroyed - did the Russians arrive too quickly or did the German commander disobey orders???

niejestemcapitaThreads: 3 Posts: 666 Joined: Jan 3, 09 ♀	Edited by: niejestemcapita Mar 10, 09, 21:06 #33
eric_the_nave: Why wasn't Krakow destroyed Orders eric orders from the top

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Mar 10, 09, 21:45 #34
eric_the_nave: Why wasn't Krakow destroyed - did the Russians arrive too quickly or did the German commander disobey orders??? There are various stories about it. The most popular one attributes the saving of the city to fast Soviet offensive. Allegedly, the Pope had sent a letter to Roosevelt asking him to press Stalin to take special care of two holy cities: Kraków and Częstochowa. :)

♂

Mar 10, 09, 22:27 #35

pixelpusher:

It was, and is, a tremendous achievement, but it wasn't pure magic. This success story has a dark side. In order to rebuilt Warsaw the Communists teared down several former German towns. Wroclaw is the most prominent example, but Jelenia Gora or Legnica are more interesting. Wroclaw was badly damaged, but Jelenia Gora was a fully preserved town, which was demolished until the 60s. Ditto for the town center of Legnica.

These towns were in Germany before the war and were full of Germans. When the Russians advanced to Germany these towns were bombarded and destroyed to get rid of the German soldiers - just like Gdansk. Legnica was on the way to Dresden one of the main Russian advances. Legnica was shelled by Russians - Dresden was bombed by bomber harris to path the way for Red army. After the war these towns were already rubble - including Wroclaw. It's quote probable that the rubble was taken to Warsaw but warsaw had plently of rubble of it's own. The huge stadium over the river was made from rubble from the city. warsaw was not lacking in rubble.

pawian:

There are various stories about it. The most popular one attributes the saving of the city to fast Soviet offensive. Allegedly, the Pope had sent a letter to Roosevelt asking him to press Stalin to take special care of two holy cities: Kraków and Częstochowa. :)

A German general who was based in Krakow did not agree to the sensless distruction of the city and ignored hitlers order. Warsaw was not considered an important historical city.

♂

Edited by: pawian Mar 10, 09, 22:46 #36

Ogorki:

It's quote probable that the rubble was taken to Warsaw but warsaw had plently of rubble of it's own. The huge stadium over the river was made from rubble from the city. warsaw was not lacking in rubble.

Hmm..... bricks saved from pulled down houses isn`t the same as rubble created by shelling or bombardment.

Ogorki:

A German general who was based in Krakow did not agree to the sensless distruction of the city and ignored hitlers order.

I heard this one but treated it as just one more legend. :):):)

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07 ♀	Mar 10, 09, 23:47 #37
I was just reading up on this. “Warsaw is known as the “phoenix city”, as it was completely destroyed during WWII, and rebuilt with the herioc effort of Polish citizens.” http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=Poli sh+Phoenix+%28mythology&ns0=1&fulltext=Search

♂

Mar 11, 09, 01:59 #38

pawian:

Yes, today`s Świętokrzyska Street is located in the area where the Ghetto used to be.

Note that on the map you link to Świętokrzyska continues to the right of the green line which shows where the edge of the ghetto was. The photos you link to were taken pretty much on the corner of Świętokrzyska and Marszalkowska (i.e. outside the ghetto, a fact I now know from the ghetto trail memorial put up by the city; thanks to that trail I now know that while I live and work in what used to be the ghetto, no matter which transport route I take, I do leave what was the ghetto).

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Apr 2, 09, 17:04 #39
A good site to see same views of 1944 and 2006 Warsaw. Take a look: http://www.pw44.pl/album.htm

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Edited by: pawian Feb 7, 10, 14:26 #40
Warsaw 1935 - peace time Old Town Jewish district Overall view The same places in 1945 after German occupation. What you see is levelled parts of city, covered with ghastly ruins. The same places today. Old Town reconstructed fairly faithfully Former Jewish district is totally different

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 12 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Feb 7, 10, 15:12 #41
Unfortunately the communists preferred the most ugly architecture when rebuilding it.

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Feb 8, 10, 21:48 #42
SzwedwPolsce: Unfortunately the communists preferred the most ugly architecture when rebuilding it. True and not true. What can you say about this one?: It was buiilt before WW2. Not too beautiful. Badly damaged, but rebuilt. Looking at it today, I think it wasn`t worth it. :):):)

delphiandomineThreads: 40 Posts: 9,585 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂	Feb 8, 10, 21:54 #43
SzwedwPolsce: Unfortunately the communists preferred the most ugly architecture when rebuilding it. Not true, there's plenty of examples of sympathetic restoration by communists throughout Eastern Europe.

♂

Edited by: pawian May 3, 11, 22:47 #44

Last year, coming back from the seaside, we passed through Elbląg. I wanted to visit the city to see the Old Town renovation and revitalisation progress.

Let me remind you -

This however soon ended when a large number of the German inhabitants of Elbing fled before the Soviet Red Army approached the city during World War II. During the siege of February 1945 the city infrastructure was 65% destroyed, including most of the historical city center.
Some of the damaged historical city center was completely demolished and the bricks were used to rebuild Warsaw and Gdańsk. The Communist authorities planned that the Old Town, utterly destroyed in 1945, be rebuilt with blocks of flats. However, economic difficulties thwarted this plan. Two churches were reconstructed and the remaining ruins of the old town were torn down in the 1960s.
Restoration of the Old Town began after 1989. Since the beginning of the restoration, an extensive archaeological programme has been carried out. Most of the city's heritage was destroyed during the construction of basements in the 19th century or during World War II, but the backyards and latrines of the houses were not changed and provide information on the city's history. On some occasions the private investors incorporated parts of preserved stonework into new architecture. Approximately 75% of the Old Town has been reconstructed as of 2006. The city museum presents many pieces of art and utilities of everyday use, including the only 15th century binoculars preserved in Europe

Before the war

Destruction - it was besieged by Soviet troops for 3 weeks. Germans defended it fanatically, to the last soldier. It resulted in almost total destruction of the historical Old Town and Downtown district.

http://www.forum.eksploracja.pl/download/file.php?id=48519

http://www.forum.eksploracja.pl/download/file.php?id=48525

The reconstruction of the Old Town in its initial phase -

Imagine this giant square was completely empty before. Now it is all built up.

Some of a few hundred photos.

They are still building a few houses in one or two streets.

These houses haven`t been rebuilt to keep room for a square

This part of the city was rebuilt (or built) right after the war

♂

May 4, 11, 07:18 #45

Ogorki:

Legnica looked like this after the war:

I see a almost completely preserved town.
And today:

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Edited by: pawian May 4, 11, 18:08 #46
Palivec: Legnica looked like this after the war: I see a almost completely preserved town. You are not a history nerd, are you? :):):) I will treat you like a student. So, my advice is: study harder and come back when you learn what happened to Legnica Old Town between 8 - 11 may 1945. OK? :):):)

♂

May 4, 11, 18:42 #47

pawian:

You are not a history nerd, are you? :):):)

I will treat you like a student. So, my advice is: study harder and come back when you learn what happened to Legnica Old Town between 8 - 11 may 1945.

OK? :):):)

The pictures show the situation long after 1945. They show the the burned out castle, which indeed happened directly after the war, and the mostly preserved old town.
Maybe you should be treated like a student. The destruction of the preserved, historic old town of Legnica after 1965 is well known among historians and conservators, since it affected the largest preserved area of Prussian rococo architecture. That Prussian heritage was the reason for the negligence and final destruction.

♂

Edited by: pawian May 4, 11, 20:53 #48

Palivec:

The pictures show the situation long after 1945.

Of course not.

Palivec:

They show the the burned out castle, which indeed happened directly after the war,

Of course not. The castle was burned in February 1945 during the fight for the city. Russian troops set fire to it in fear of German counterattack, to prevent taking it back by Germans.

Palivec:

and the mostly preserved old town.

The Old Town was mostly preserved, but only from February 1945 to 8-11 May 1945 when Soviet troops organised an orgy of destruction to celebrate the end of war. Houses were robbed and set on fire one after another.

Palivec:

The destruction of the preserved, historic old town of Legnica after 1965 is well known among historians and conservators,

The destruction, started by Soviet troops in 1945, was only completed by Polishcommunist authorities, greatly influenced by Russian troops who chose Legnica for their major headquarters in Poland.

Palivec:

it affected the largest preserved area of Prussian rococo architecture. That Prussian heritage was the reason for the negligence and final destruction.

Go to your German colleagues to complain about the war they started. :):):) If they hadn`t, the beautiful Old Town of Liegnitz would have survived till today. :):):)

Palivec:

Maybe you should be treated like a student.

I don`t think so, dear. :):):):)

♂

May 4, 11, 22:20 #49

pawian:

Of course not.

Then tell my way the rubble of war is so cleanly removed?! The Polish source, which hosts the pic, also says 1950-1980.

pawian:

Of course not. The castle was burned in February 1945 during the fight for the city. Russian troops set fire to it in fear of German counterattack, to prevent taking it back by Germans.

True. I checked my sources, and it was indeed February. Sorry.

pawian:

This happened everywhere but didn't necessarily destroy entire towns. And in the case of Legnica the old town was still in pretty good shape, like the pictures suggest and the sources confirm.

pawian:

The destruction, started by Soviet troops in 1945, was only completed by Polishcommunist authorities, greatly influenced by Russian troops who chose Legnica for their major headquarters in Poland.

The Russian troops usually didn't care about urban management. It was mostly a Polish effort, in line with events in other parts of the recovered territories.

pawian:

Go to your German colleagues to complain about the war they started. :):):) If they hadn`t, the beautiful Old Town of Liegnitz would have survived till today. :):):)

I'm not German, and pointing out to the not so nice parts of the Polish history isn't complaining but a gentle push to accept the darker sides of history too.

♂

Edited by: Harry May 4, 11, 22:57 #50

Palivec:

pointing out to the not so nice parts of the Polish history isn't complaining but a gentle push to accept the darker sides of history too.

But there are no dark sides to Polish history and no not-so-nice parts either: everything bad which happened involving Poland is either being lied about by all historians who are not Polish or was actually carried out by Jews/Commies/Ukrainians/Germans/Belarussians/homosexuals/other persons who can not be Poles and historians just mistakenly believe that those persons were Poles!

♂

Edited by: pawian May 4, 11, 23:15 #51

Palivec:

True. I checked my sources, and it was indeed February. Sorry.

I accept your apology. It is nice of you.

Palivec:

Then tell my way the rubble of war is so cleanly removed?! The Polish source, which hosts the pic, also says 1950-1980.

True. I checked my sources and it was indeed still standing in early 1960. Sorry.

Palivec:

And in the case of Legnica the old town was still in pretty good shape, like the pictures suggest and the sources confirm.

Yes and no. The fact that walls look intact doesn`t mean that the house is so ready for renovation. Do you know what burnt out houses have inside? Nothing:

Palivec:

The Russian troops usually didn't care about urban management. It was mostly a Polish effort, in line with events in other parts of the recovered territories.

OK, so it was the effort of local Polish communist rulers. Satisfied? :):):) Do you know how communist system worked? :):):)

Palivec:

I'm not German,.

Doesn`t matter, if you want to complain about reconstruction, turn to Germans first.

Palivec:

and pointing out to the not so nice parts of the Polish history isn't complaining but a gentle push to accept the darker sides of history too.

You still need to study harder. What f.....g darker sides of Polish history are you talking about in case of reconstruction? :):)
Germans turned urban Poland into ruins, some of them were rebuilt in the original shape, some weren`t due to scarce resources which sentenced Prussian architecture in Legnica to annihilation.

I really don`t see your point.

Harry:

Harry, on the whole I appreciate your posts and respect you as a reasonable poster. However, I must say that in this one you made a fool of yourself. Why are you doing this to me?

I hope you forgive me my sincerity. :):):)

♂

May 5, 11, 00:11 #52

Palivec:

I'm not German, and pointing out to the not so nice parts of the Polish history isn't complaining but a gentle push to accept the darker sides of history too.

The full version of one flight over ruined Warsaw is already available:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywc4oxNv_ZU&feature=related

The most depressing view is the Old Town at 2:07 and Warsaw Ghetto district, literally razed to the ground at 2:25.

So, what darker sides of history are you talking about, Palicev?

♂

May 5, 11, 08:14 #53

pawian:

Germans turned urban Poland into ruins, some of them were rebuilt in the original shape, some weren`t due to scarce resources which sentenced Prussian architecture in Legnica to annihilation.

pawian:

So, what darker sides of history are you talking about, Palicev?

In the context of the topic of this thread, the destruction of countless preserved quarters in the recovered territories to rebuild Warsaw and the planned destruction (graveyards, monuments, epitaphs) or deliberate neglect (castles, parks, churches, graveyards) of heritage with a distinctive German character.
Usually the public opinion in Poland still helds the war responsible for all destructions, while Poland is usually seen as the great reconstructor. But the truth is that these destructions weren't the result of scarce resources but of an ideology which forcibly destroyed German heritage.

pawian:

Yes and no. The fact that walls look intact doesn`t mean that the house is so ready for renovation. Do you know what burnt out houses have inside?

Look at my pics again. Most houses still have roofs. Burned out houses don't have roofs. The old town of Legnica was *not* completely burned out.

pawian:

Doesn`t matter, if you want to complain about reconstruction, turn to Germans first.

I don't complain about reconstruction but about destruction.... and have to turn to the originator, which, in this case, is Poland.

♂

May 5, 11, 10:50 #54

pawian:

What f.....g darker sides of Polish history are you talking about in case of reconstruction?

Interestingly you actually mention something related to that:

pawian:

The full version of one flight over ruined Warsaw is already available: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywc4oxNv_ZU&feature=related

Interesting how that full version manages to completely miss the rather large area of almost entirely salvageable buildings which were pulled down to make way for PKiN. And the fairly large area of buildings, many inhabited and almost undamaged, which were pulled down to make way for MDM.

And then there's the issue about where some of the bricks which were used to rebuild Warsaw Old Town and New Town actually came from....

♂

May 5, 11, 11:07 #55

And then there's the issue about where some of the bricks which were used to rebuild Warsaw Old Town and New Town actually came from....

Yes, I consider it a barbaric act to move the buldings from towns and cities of western Poland (which were rather well preserved as Germans fled those territories without much of a fight, reorganizing their defense at Odra) - the sad result of that is for example Głogów. Warszawa is still an extremele fugly city outside of the Old Town, which makes all of it all the more shameful.

Living in a small town in western Poland, we are restoring the town from four decades of communism more so than the war itself, many older buildings turned into ruins due to negligence...

♂

Edited by: pawian May 5, 11, 14:55 #56

Koala:

The sad result of your ignorance is that you mention Głogów as an example of barbaric act of post war purposeful destruction. Głogów was turned by Germans into a fortress and destroyed during 6-week siege, by artillery and bombing.

Yes, there were a few buildings which could be preserved. But local communist authorities decided otherwise. In 1948 they took the decision of reconstruction but it soon turned out they didn`t have enough means. The ruins of the Old Town which had practically ceased to exist in result of the siege, were pulled down in 1950s.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgFoOZhkI6tUkyOYp5J26Y NmhFihlcZPMeOdxEN9Kx8GmNT3nhKYol6DR5DaRHEzXvnjoLMaT2Mw9InZXCf654VqJvS1 zOdKX7CWcmdwF2V1zYVuM2SBVHSGKys4vpiOZj4i30B&q=cache%3Aukjjfe0XRU0J%3As it.glogow.pl%2Fopracowania%2FOdbudowa%2520Starego%2520Miasta.pdf%20g%C 5%82og%C3%B3w%20stare%20miasto&docid=ae567a0d3d6de91b31d940f9b261708d& a=bi&pagenumber=1&w=800

Guys, Palives and Koala, why are you providing examples of towns which were damaged or destroyed during the war? You are complaining about their bad reconstruction or even purposeful destruction after the war. How about towns which escaped untouched? Were any of them maliciously demolished by Poles after the war because of their German origin/past?

WroclawThreads: 74 Posts: 7,276 Joined: Apr 1, 06 ♂ [Moderator]	May 5, 11, 17:57 #57
this may be relevant. i was in a government office this morning and while waiting for my number to appear i spent some time looking at a building site across the road. a sapper was wandering around with a metal detector. one can only assume that he was looking for uxb's rather than buried treasure.

MaaarysiaThreads: 3 Posts: 524 Joined: Feb 27, 10 ♀	May 5, 11, 18:03 #58
Wroclaw: a sapper was wandering around with a metal detector. one can only assume that he was looking for uxb's rather than buried treasure. It happens all the time. Does someone remember when they found a WWII bomb on a building site near Politechnika Warszawska? They needed to evacuate pretty much of the adjacent area.

isthatu2Threads: 12 Posts: 4,857 Joined: Apr 3, 08 ♂	May 5, 11, 18:06 #59
Wroclaw: one can only assume that he was looking for uxb's rather than buried treasure. lols,who knows,maybe Im the last one here,but I just watched that Documentry about the british bloke hunting for his grandads "treasure" in what turned out to now be a Polish Army Textile lab(yeah,my arse....;) ) , maybe theres a bath full of silver and rembrants in there W'?

♂

May 5, 11, 18:15 #60

pawian:

How about towns which escaped untouched? Were any of them maliciously demolished by Poles after the war because of their German origin/past?

There was virtually no fighting in Slupsk. As to how the fires started days after the city was taken spread so fast or who might have been smoking the cigarette that was carelessly discarded to start them, I guess we'll never know....

Pity, the city looks like it was once beautiful. And the house where the postcard was invented has been lost for ever.

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