The restoration of Polish cities from WW2 destruction

POLAND . The Unofficial Guide

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May 5, 11, 19:09 #61

Harry:

Perhaps we do know after all.

translation:

Withdrawing German forces destroyed the bridge on Slupia River, damaged and disabled the power plant, gas supply plant and water supply infrastructure. Soviet artillery destroyed central part of the railway station. The Old Town - the business area, was looted and burnt down by the Red Army troops 3 days after they occupied Slupsk.
source

Whatever was German before WW2 experienced little mercy from the Soviets. I'm sure there were some Polish soldiers who participated in some of the destruction that now, from the comfort of a sofa, and looking at things through a laptop screen, might be called senseless. We'll never know how we'd feel about that if we just covered a few hundred kilometers of distance through Poland and saw all the destruction caused by the Germans, or how the British pilots (some of whom saw what Germans did to some of their cities) felt when they were bombing Dresden.

Some of the destruction after the direct hostilities ceased may have been committed by Poles. A lot of it was deliberate action of the Soviets. One such example was the Wroclaw Cathedral. While it was seriously damaged in 1945, the steeples were still standing. Soviets took them down for the raw material they contained. In many parts of what is now Western Poland, they disassembled entire factories and they even took away railway tracks, loaded them on trains and off they went to the USSR.

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May 5, 11, 19:25 #62

z_darius:

Some of the destruction after the direct hostilities ceased may have been committed by Poles. A lot of it was deliberate action of the Soviets. One such example was the Wroclaw Cathedral. While it was seriously damaged in 1945, the steeples were still standing. Soviets took them down for the raw material they contained. In many parts of what is now Western Poland, they disassembled entire factories and they even took away railway tracks, loaded them on trains and off they went to the USSR.

Good God! Make a note people, all the planets must be aligned: darek and I actually agree! Although from what I've heard and read the Soviets went even further: in some structurally undamaged buildings in what is now Poland even the toilet seats were stripped out. And of course the Soviets justified this by saying that they were actually taking property from Germany.

Although we don't agree entirely on Slupsk, when I lived there I heard Poles say (with pride) that it was Polish units who remodeled the centre.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	May 5, 11, 19:37 #63
Harry: Although we don't agree entirely on Slupsk, when I lived there I heard Poles say (with pride) that it was Polish units who remodeled the centre. I was kinda very young in 1945 so I can't vouch for how the city looked and who did what. The quote was from the city's official website.

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Edited by: pawian May 5, 11, 19:37 #64

Harry:

There was virtually no fighting in Slupsk. As to how the fires started days after the city was taken spread so fast or who might have been smoking the cigarette that was carelessly discarded to start them, I guess we'll never know....

Pity, the city looks like it was once beautiful. And the house where the postcard was invented has been lost for ever.

Harry, so you have decided to continue to make a fool of yourself??? :):):) Why? Is it worth?

Słupsk suffered the fate of other German settlements taken by the Red Army. There was no fighting, German troops had left the town. Seeing Russian tanks approaching, German civilians, especially the local elites, started comitting suicides. After Soviets entered, the hunt for women commenced. They were gang raped even in churches, then murdered. The Old Town was burnt to the ground.
That is what witnesses say.
http://odkrywca.pl/pokaz_watek.php?id=648260

Harry:

Although we don't agree entirely on Slupsk,

In this case, your dissagreement proves ignorance.

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	May 5, 11, 19:50 #65
Harry: Although we don't agree entirely on Slupsk, when I lived there I heard Poles say (with pride) that it was Polish units who remodeled the centre. the only Polish troops that could possibly enter Slupsk in the spring of 1945 was 1st Tank Brigade - but even this is doubtful (looking at wikipedia entry on the brigade)

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,395 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Edited by: pawian May 5, 11, 19:56 #66
Nice photos of Słupsk ruins. Ascribing it to Poles is swinish cheekiness. :):):) http://www.ssi.slupsk.pl/stare_pocztowki/zniszczenia.html

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May 5, 11, 20:22 #67

pawian:

Guys, Palives and Koala, why are you providing examples of towns which were damaged or destroyed during the war? You are complaining about their bad reconstruction or even purposeful destruction after the war. How about towns which escaped untouched? Were any of them maliciously demolished by Poles after the war because of their German origin/past?

Entire towns were seldom demolished because of the German origin but rather forfeit due to, how to call it... emotional resistance by the new owners, and later destroyed. Prominent examples of towns damaged or even completely destroyed after the war can be found mostly in Silesia, since the war didn't affect the southern part. Jelenia Gora, Klotzko, Luban, Strzelin, Lwówek Śląski, Legnica, Nysa, Brzeg are examples of towns that suffered after the war. Some lost their old town entirely after the war, like Jelenia Gora and Legnica, others were damaged to rebuild Warsaw, like Brzeg, Nysa and Wrocław.

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09 ♂	May 5, 11, 20:28 #68
Palivec: Klotzko, where do you live actually?

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Edited by: Sokrates May 5, 11, 20:42 #69

Palivec:

Entire towns were seldom demolished because of the German origin but rather forfeit due to

Thats a lie i'm sorry, people needed homes , nobody "forfeited" them.

Palivec:

and later destroyed

Not a single town was destroyed by Poles.

Palivec:

Some lost their old town entirely after the war, like Jelenia Gora and Legnica

You're an idiot none of cities you listed lost their old town, not even partially.

Palivec:

others were damaged to rebuild Warsaw, like Brzeg, Nysa and Wrocław.

And these actually did lose their old towns and more so you can stop talking now.

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May 5, 11, 20:46 #70

Palivec:

emotional resistance by the new owners, and later destroyed. Prominent examples of towns damaged or even completely destroyed after the war can be found mostly in Silesia, since the war didn't affect the southern part ... Wrocław.

Omitted ones I won't comment about and I left just Wroclaw.
In short, in regards to that city, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Google Festung Breslau.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,395 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Edited by: pawian May 5, 11, 20:51 #71
Sokrates: none of cities you listed lost their old town, not even partially. I am afraid it is not true.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	May 5, 11, 22:03 #72
pawian: I am afraid it is not true. Lost pawian? Last i checked to lose an old town is to have it nuked like Warsaw.

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Edited by: pawian May 5, 11, 23:26 #73

Palivec:

In the context of the topic of this thread, the destruction of countless preserved quarters in the recovered territories to rebuild Warsaw

Palivec:

Jelenia Gora, Klotzko, Luban, Strzelin, Lwówek Śląski, Legnica, Nysa, Brzeg are examples of towns that suffered after the war. Some lost their old town entirely after the war, like Jelenia Gora and Legnica, others were damaged to rebuild Warsaw, like Brzeg, Nysa and Wrocław.

Thanks for names of cities which I asked for. Untouched by war, but lacked maintanance and in result had some of their houses demolished under Polish rule. Among others, to send the building materials to Warsaw, indeed.

But please, don`t exaggerate. Countless and preserved? I agree Legnica, Jelenia Góra, Lubań or Nysa were partly demolished by Polish councils but it doesn`t make summer yet. Those are only a few towns. Most cities and towns in ex-German lands were damaged/destroyed during sieges or by jubilant Soviet troops.

E.g., Kostrzyń - the center destroyed almost 100%

Palivec:

the planned destruction (graveyards, monuments, epitaphs)

Yes, of course. It is natural. Poles were only doing what Germans did during the war to Polish cultural heritage.

Palivec:

deliberate neglect (castles, parks, churches, graveyards) of heritage with a distinctive German character.

Which was also natural after the war in which Germans killed 6 million Polish citizens.

Palivec:

Usually the public opinion in Poland still helds the war responsible for all destructions,

Because it is true. Germans and their war are responsible for everything. Would Legnica` s center have been destroyed by Poles if the war hadn`t broken out? :):))

while Poland is usually seen as the great reconstructor.

Great is again your exaggeration.

I would say partial reconstructor is more appropriate. The lack of means was crucial. You probably have completely no idea what life was like in Poland after the war and later on. Poland had already been a poor country before the war, after it even more, with 38% of economy and infrastructure turned into ashes. To make long story short: not only German graveyards were neglected, Polish historical ones, too. Unfortunately, only major places like Wrocław or Gdańsk got enough funds to rebuild their original architecture and not even whole.

Palivec:

But the truth is that these destructions weren't the result of scarce resources but of an ideology which forcibly destroyed German heritage.

Yes, ideology played a role but it wasn`t pure Polish ideology, it was communist stalinist ideology introduced by Soviet occupants and carried out by Polish renegades.
OK, Polish reluctance to look after German heritage also played a role.

Palivec:

Look at my pics again. Most houses still have roofs. Burned out houses don't have roofs. The old town of Legnica was *not* completely burned out.

There is some mystery about it. All sources say that Legnica`s Old Town was burnt by Soviets.

But I dug out such photos from 1962:

Though decrepit, they still looked OK.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1086295&page=2

Destruction

So, you were right, many houses in Legnica could have been saved.

Palivec:

I don't complain about reconstruction but about destruction.... and have to turn to the originator, which, in this case, is Poland.

OK, mix the new communist system with general hatred to Germans after the horrendous war and then you will get the generally deprecating attitude to German property. But it wasn`t a rule everywhere.

In my opinion you don`t really have the right to accuse Poles of anything. This attitude doesn`t continue today. It is the matter of the past. German heritage which survived the war and communism is taken care of nowadays.

Look at Słupsk, mentioned by Harry:

Or, after being destroyed, attempts are made to put it up again:

Luban:
Before the war

War destruction:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ugoezqYGJKc

Demolition of the ruined (heavy fighting in 1945), but still standing center in 1950s:

Immediately after communism collapsed, the plan of reconstruction was made:

Completed in 2004.

Even if it is not faithful, it still bears connotations to the original.

http://www.luban.pl/luban/historia.php

Sokrates:

Lost pawian? Last i checked to lose an old town is to have it nuked like Warsaw.

Read about the destruction of Jelenia Góra center in 1970s:
http://www.jelonka.com/news,single,init,article,12713

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Edited by: Palivec May 6, 11, 08:46 #74

gumishu:

where do you live actually?

Why? Klotzkos old town was partly destroyed between 1959 and 1970 due to subsidence damages, which the new owners of the town didn't correct at an early stage.

Sokrates:

Thats a lie i'm sorry, people needed homes , nobody "forfeited" them.

Then Poles historians lie, since my Polish source mentions Legnica and Lwówek Śląski. And btw., all Communist regimes prefered to built precast concrete slabs to counter the housing shortage, since it was much cheaper than preserving historic town centers.

Sokrates:

You're an idiot none of cities you listed lost their old town, not even partially.

So, you think the old town of Jelenia Gora always looked like this:

Because, earlier the town looked like this:

Strange, isn't it? But since you ignored the pictures of Legnica too I think you don't want to know the truth but prefer to believe in your little fairy tale.
Oh, and thank you for calling me an idiot, you uninformed *]/%°>.

z_darius:

Omitted ones I won't comment about and I left just Wroclaw.
In short, in regards to that city, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Google Festung Breslau.

As I previously said, not everything can be explained by the war. During the early 50s Wrocław delivered up to 165 million bricks to Warsaw... each year. The whole eastern part of the old town, which was partly rebuildable, was sacrificed for it. Usually people like you have no clue how big the old town of Wrocław actually was.
But Wrocław is a completely different case anyway, since it was the main stage of the Communist propaganda efforts.

pawian:

OK, mix the new communist system with general hatred to Germans after the horrendous war and then you will get the generally deprecating attitude to German property.

That's all I want to say here... ;)

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Edited by: Torq May 6, 11, 09:04 #75

Harry:

Although we don't agree entirely on Slupsk, when I lived there I heard Poles say (with pride)
that it was Polish units who remodeled the centre.

Strange. Słupsk is my home town, I spent most of my life there, and I've never heard about
Polish units destroying the city. Słupsk was taken by Soviets at the beginning of March 1945
and Soviets ruled the city until August 1945.

http://www.powiatslupsk.info/marzec%201945.htm

Radziecki komendant wojenny był faktycznym włodarzem miasta. Do 10 sierpnia 1945 roku siedzibą
Komendantury Wojennej był ratusz.

Praktycznie ziemie te należały do Polski dopiero od 2 sierpnia 1945 roku.

So, the lands came under Polish administration, as late as August, and by then it was already
known that Słupsk will be a Polish city, so I can't see why LWP would want to raze it.

Ever since I remember we were taught that those were Soviet units who destroyed the city centre,
and nobody ever mentioned Polish involvment. Oh, well - I'm going to have to ask local historians about it.

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May 6, 11, 13:50 #76

Torq:

Strange. Słupsk is my home town, I spent most of my life there, and I've never heard about
Polish units destroying the city.

I know it is. It's entirely possible that the people who told me were completely wrong, two drunkish guys in a bar are not generally regarded as the most reliable of sources when it comes to history.

pawian:

Ascribing it to Poles is swinish cheekiness

Do feel free to go tell that to the guys who told me. You may wish to note that I have not ascribed it to Poles, I said that I've heard Poles doing so.

pawian:

Look at Słupsk, mentioned by Harry:

Torq, it that first building still a school? I'm pretty sure I taught a few lessons there years ago.

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May 6, 11, 14:37 #77

Palivec:

Why? Klotzkos old town was partly destroyed between 1959 and 1970 due to subsidence damages, which the new owners of the town didn't correct at an early stage.

I asked because originally I thought you were Polish, and then you jump up with Klotzko :) now I am not that surprised you couldn't read a forum discussion in Polish (I mostly can't read forums in German so you are excused)

as for destroying German cultural objects say monuments - hmm I'm pretty curious how do you imagine Polish population walking past all those Frederick the Greats, Keiser Wilhelms and Hindenburgs on a daily basis in the post war years

as for the cemeteries - various cemeteries had various stories - some still do exist (there is a big old evangelical cemetery in Opole for example, Wrocław Jewish cemetery has been left intact too (maybe because it was Jewish - it is a museum now AFAIK))

it is true you won't find too many German graves - i know cemeteries not in use anymore where the monuments/graves were razed -
some German cemeteries have been 'recycled' in a way (however nasty it may sound to you) like the big cemeteries in Wrocław - I don't know if they were emptied of German monuments before they started to fill with Polish graves (graves on big cemetries in big cities are 'cleared' anyway after 25 years in Poland to give place to new burials (unless you pay a considerable fee to let them stay longer)

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	May 6, 11, 16:32 #78
Harry: Torq, it that first building still a school? I'm pretty sure I taught a few lessons there years ago. That building is starostwo powiatowe, but right next to it, in Szarych Szeregów street, is an old highschool, and that's probably the school you're talking about.

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Apr 14, 12, 23:28 #79

Głogów

The town was made into a stronghold by the Nazi government in 1945 during World War II. Glogau was besieged for six weeks by the Soviet Red Army and was 95% destroyed. After the Yalta Conference, the city, like the majority of Lower Silesia, was given to Poland and German-speaking inhabitants were expelled. In May 1945 the first Polish settlers came to the renamed city of Głogów to find only ruins; the town has not been fully rebuilt to this day. The town started to develop again only in 1967, after a copper foundry was built there.

Before WW2

After WW2

Communist times

Democracy:

Symbolic views

Photos from here
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=335113&page=1
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=335113&page=2

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