Roman Dmowski-Patriot, Nationalist, Anti-Semite?

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,441 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Nov 24, 10, 03:46 #1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Dmowski

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Nov 24, 10, 16:42 #2
He was the nemesis of Piłsudski. When compared to JP, he was anti-Semitic in his tone. However, given the cheating that many Jewish business folk were engaged in at the time, I'm hardly surprised that he wanted to carve out a Polishness which meant protecting themselves against being exploited. He was pragmatic in that sense but may have overstepped some lines according to some.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: jonni Nov 24, 10, 16:52 #3
Seanus: cheating that many Jewish business folk were engaged in at the time, I'm hardly surprised that he wanted to carve out a Polishness which meant protecting themselves against being exploited Hard to imagine that you believe that. Check out some of the things Dmowski wrote - nastiness drips off the pages.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Nov 24, 10, 16:54 #4
PennBoy: Roman Dmowski-Patriot, Nationalist, Anti-Semite? Those aren't mutually exclusive.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Nov 24, 10, 17:29 #5
He looks like Hitler....it's the moustache...

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Nov 24, 10, 17:32 #6

Seanus:

However, given the cheating that many Jewish business folk were engaged in at the time, I'm hardly surprised that he wanted to carve out a Polishness which meant protecting themselves against being exploited.

very true Seanus, Jews weren't assimilating wanted to be separate and keep all the business for themselves, keeping Poles as little more than their serfs, that's why he believed in creating a numerous Polish middle class.

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Nov 24, 10, 18:11 #7

Not anti-Semitic at all. Who here actually lived through the times when there were many Jews here? My father-in-law did and he is a very level-headed man with no axes to grind. He knows how they operated and was a first-hand victim of their ruthless business exploits. It has nothing to do with me believing or not, jonni. The fact is I don't know either way but he is a highly trustworthy source and is not radical.

Dmowski was merely protecting a country which had undergone uprisings immediately after gaining their independence in 1918 and he was sceptical of all those Jews coming across from Russia before Hitler unleashed his deadly Final Solution on them. He was referring to their modus operandi and wasn't stabbing at ethnicity too much.

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Nov 24, 10, 18:18 #8

PennBoy:

Jews ..... keep all the business for themselves

Do you know any single person or group of people who give businesses away?

PennBoy:

keeping Poles as little more than their serfs,

Or customers?

Seanus:

He was referring to their modus operandi and wasn't stabbing at ethnicity too much.

He believed in a monoracial state. Fortunately, Marszal Pilsudzki didn't, and in any case Dmowski's bunch were never in office during his lifetime.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Nov 24, 10, 18:20 #9
I didn't like that aspect of his approach but I did like the element of protectionism which he introduced. Piłsudski was far more friendly to the Jews.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: jonni Nov 24, 10, 18:23 #10
Seanus: the element of protectionism which he introduced. Which he proposed introducing, without success. Given the parlous economic state of Poland during his lifetime, some degree of protectionism sounds seductively appealing - but on the grounds of race or religion? No.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Nov 24, 10, 18:32 #11
True enough! I like the fact that he looked for a counterbalance to what Pilly was offering but he did come across as OTT at times. Still, he echoed the sentiments of many Poles that learned of the cheating ways of some Jews. I say some because many Jews were very poor just before the outbreak of WWII. He merely saw what they were up to but maybe didn't go about rectifying it in the right way.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Nov 24, 10, 18:34 #12
His "counterbalance" therefore, involved advancing his own ethnic group at the expense of another, sharing the same territory. I prefer Pildsudski's inclusive approach. Nevertheless, he has his followers, even today!

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Nov 24, 10, 18:35 #13
They did operate in different times, without the geist of current legislation which sets out to protect minorities. That has to be borne in mind too.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Nov 24, 10, 18:38 #14
Seanus: They did operate in different times, without the geist of current legislation which sets out to protect minorities. That has to be borne in mind too. Yes. The lessons humanity learnt after the evils of fascism were exposed hadn't yet happened. Though I understand he was an admirer of Mussolini.

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Nov 24, 10, 18:42 #15

jonni:

Do you know any single person or group of people who give businesses away?

not give it away but wouldn't hire Poles except for labor jobs, or let them open up a buisnes by selling theirs to them or compete, they'd lower the prices so much that u'd go bankrupt in a month or so, it did happen.

jonni:

Or customers?

customers need to have well paying jobs, and would like to be able to afford more than food. Poles in their own country and can't get to the top because some other ethnicity wont let them, blocks all their their attempts, does that sound right to you??

♂

Edited by: Borrka Nov 24, 10, 18:43 #16

Studying case "Dmowski" can be occupation for historian's life.
He wasn't antisemite in the sense we are today used to.
He considered Jewery to be a clever and politically talented enemy, by far smarter than uneducated Polish masses.
On the contrary to Jozef Pilsudski Dmowski thought that Jewish long run objectives are absolutely not in line with national Polish agenda so Jews were his #1 enemies.
Not in the Nazi sense of subhumans but as a very dangerous factor of Polish political arena.

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,441 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Nov 24, 10, 18:49 #17
Bratwurst Boy: He looks like Hitler....it's the moustache... Dmowski was right on many issues, sometimes he just said too much out load, like at the signing of the Versailles Treaty his anti-Semitic speech hurt Poland. Wasn't the time or place it was a domestic issue.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 24, 10, 18:51 #18

Borrka:

On the contrary to Jozef Pilsudski Dmowski thought that Jewish long run objectives are absolutely not in line with national Polish agenda so Jews were his #1 enemies.
Not in the Nazi sense of subhumans but as a very dangerous factor of Polish political arena.

Absolutely the same, there are no differences!
You are searching for drawstrings here Borrka...

Just look at Nazi anti-Jew propaganda...it's because of their anti-german plans (objectives) that they were declared enemies of the german people by the Nazis.

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Nazi%20jew%20propaganda&um=1&ie=U TF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=804&bih=408

"Bolschevists, communists, warmonger, nifty exploiter of the hard working masses, political manipulators"...exactly the same stuff!

♂

Edited by: jonni Nov 24, 10, 18:54 #19

PennBoy:

they'd lower the prices so much that u'd go bankrupt in a month or so, it did happen

And still does. Sharp though it is, it's still normal business practice. I've seen it happen in Warsaw - Poles doing it to Poles. It isn't a particulary Jewish thing.

PennBoy:

in their own country

The "own country" of anyone who lived there - when the Second Republic's borders appeared there was nobody still alive who remembered Polish independence.

PennBoy:

Poles in their own country and can't get to the top because some other ethnicity wont let them, blocks all their their attempts, does that sound right to you??

No, given that the institutions of the state, all ministries and universities, the Church, the police and both branches of the armed forces were run by non-Jewish Poles.

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Nov 24, 10, 19:01 #20

Bratwurst Boy:

Absolutely the same, there are no differences

Not at all.
I'll use your favorite Wiki to prove you wrong:

The word antisemitic (antisemitisch in German) was probably[vague] first used in 1860 by the Austrian Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in the phrase "antisemitic prejudices" (German: "antisemitische Vorurteile").[31] Steinschneider used this phrase to characterize Ernest Renan's ideas about how "Semitic races" were inferior to "Aryan races." These pseudo-scientific theories concerning race, civilization, and "progress" had become quite widespread in Europe in the second half of the 19th century, especially as Prussian nationalistic historian Heinrich von Treitschke did much to promote this form of racism. In Treitschke's writings Semitic was synonymous with Jewish, in contrast to its usage by Renan and others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 24, 10, 19:05 #21

Borrka:

Not at all.
I'll use your favorite Wiki to prove you wrong:

A definition of anti-semitism? Okaaay...thank you, I didn't know about it!

Heh:)

Just look at at the propaganda and you will see the arguments against Jews are all the same,
even today, even here in this thread!

"Some nifty, manipulative people only out for their own gain to the disadvantage of the non-Jews..."

Sounds familiar?

"Sucked dry"

Tell me again where the difference is to Dmowskis propaganda?

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,441 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Nov 24, 10, 19:06 #22
Bratwurst Boy: Just look at Nazi anti-Jew propaganda...it's because of their anti-german plans (objectives) that they were declared enemies of the german people by the Nazis. True Jews numbered a lot less in Germany than in Poland, yet they were half of all doctors, lawyers, business owners, Germans felt the same as Poles did in the pre war days.

♂ [Suspended]

Edited by: Harry Nov 24, 10, 19:10 #23

PennBoy:

Jews numbered a lot less in Germany than in Poland, yet they were half of all doctors, lawyers, business owners,

What a surprise to see you trotting out Nazi propaganda.

The simple fact is that in 1933 there were 6,488 Jewish doctors in Germany. The total number of doctors in Germany was then 50,000. So Jews actually accounted for about 13% of German doctors. Would you like to now withdraw your lie?

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 24, 10, 19:13 #24

PennBoy:

True Jews numbered a lot less in Germany than in Poland, yet they were half of all doctors, lawyers, business owners, Germans felt the same as Poles did in the pre war days.

Nope, they weren't...the pre-war Jews made not even 1 percent of the german population (and not everyone of them belonged to the elite) so they can't be "half of the doctors, lawyers, business owners etc".

That's another myth...similiar to the myth that they were the reason for Germany's fate.

Since the far majority of the Jews lived in the bigger towns, but the majority of the Germans of that time still lived in the rural parts chances were that most Germans never met a Jew personally.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Edited by: jonni Nov 24, 10, 19:14 #25
PennBoy: yet they were half of all doctors, lawyers, business owners Good for them. What should a talented, intelligent landless people do? Depend on the 'good will' of others?

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08 ♂	Nov 24, 10, 19:17 #26
Bratwurst Boy: arguments against Jews are all the same, They are at least similar, agreed. But I'm not talking the average antisemitic propaganda but Dmowski's attitude towards Jews: smart, hardworking, well educated and for that reason deadly dangerous for Poland.

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Nov 24, 10, 19:18 #27

Surely Roman Dmowski wanted to be a Polish patriot, but he should be judged not merely by his aspirations but by his acts as well. During the Russo-Japanese War when Piłsudski had gone to Japan to tell the Japanese to let their Polish P.O.W.s join them in fighting the Russians, and to garner aid for an uprising in Poland itself, Dmowski also went to Japan to oppose this. Moreover during the 1905 Polish insurrection his forces aided the Russians in putting it down.

Dmowski had his reasons and we can only speculate about what would've happened had the Second Polish Republic gotten an earlier start, but it must be pointed out that Dmowski's pro-Russian actions put him in accord with the Polish Jews who also opposed violent attempts to throw off the Russian yoke. (These Jews felt it was better for them to be in a state where both they and the Polish Gentiles were minorities rather than a state with an emboldened Polish Gentile majority.) In retrospect one must admit that Dmowski's pre-1914 belief that Polish independence could be attained gradually under Imperial Russian tutelage is made highly suspect by the decades of Soviet Russian domination that followed the Second World War.

If Polish Nationalism is defined as a belief that an independent Poland should favor ethnic Poles above all others then Dmowski was undeniably Nationalist, but such a stance is also unpatriotic in a multinational place like Poland. Piłsudski's vision of a Poland for all its citizens be they ethnically Polish, or Jewish, or Tartar, or Lithuanian, or Ruthenian, etc. is the truly patriotic one.

♂

Edited by: PennBoy Nov 24, 10, 19:19 #28

Bratwurst Boy:

Tell me again where the difference is to Dmowskis propaganda?

There isn't any difference he believed in a world wide Jewish conspiracy, that the forming of a Jewish state in Palestine, the whole Zionist movement was just a cover up, that Israel would only serve as the nucleus of a movement for Jewish world domination. He like Hitler, knew he shouldn't say certain things out load, but simply was overpowered by his anti-Semitism and it it anyway.

jonni:

The "own country" of anyone who lived there - when the Second Republic's borders appeared there was nobody still alive who remembered Polish independence.

who said anything about remembering pre partitioned Poland?? Poland is still Poland, anyhow this was a new Poland, new idea who should and shouldn't belong to it, i think they meant ethnic Poles, Slavs, descendants of the tribes who inhabited that land when it was formed.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Nov 24, 10, 19:23 #29
PennBoy: who should and shouldn't belong to it, i think they meant ethnic Poles, Slavs, descendants of the tribes who inhabited that land when it was formed. Centuries before, Europe having irrevocably changed in the intervening years. Though when "the land was formed" it was a pretty mixed territory too.

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,441 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Nov 24, 10, 19:37 #30
Dmowski and Pilsudski were divided by two different ideas on how Poland should be, Dmowski believed in the the nation (ethnic Poles) others out, Pilsudski believed in country, building a independent prosperous Poland for all people within it's borders.

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