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Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin -- all of them lied about Katyn


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IronsideThreads: 59
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 Jul 17, 11, 14:47    #1
All of them choose to lie about Katyn.
I can understand Stalin,, but nobody forced Roosevelt and Churchill to actively suppress the truth about Katyn. They lied to their nation and they used the police and secret services of both countries to prosecute those who dared question the official version - that Katyn massacre was a German crime.

Wroclaw BoyThreads: 57
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 Jul 17, 11, 15:07    #2
Ironside:
All of them choose to lie about Katyn.
I can understand Stalin,, but nobody forced Roosevelt and Churchill to actively suppress the truth about Katyn. They lied to their nation and they used the police and secret services of both countries to prosecute those who dared question the official version - that Katyn massacre was a German crime.

Nothing about selling Poland then? Its not really fair to put Roosevelt in the same ball park, the guy died before he could tell his story.

Interesting take from wiki on Roosevelt:

His goal was to make America the "Arsenal of Democracy" which would supply munitions to the Allies. In March 1941, Roosevelt, with Congressional approval, provided Lend-Lease aid to the countries fighting against Nazi Germany with Britain. With very strong national support he made war on Japan and Germany after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, calling it a "date which will live in infamy". He supervised the mobilization of the US economy to support the Allied war effort. Unemployment dropped to 2%, relief programs largely ended, and the industrial economy grew rapidly to new heights as millions of people moved to new jobs in war centers, and 16 million men and 300,000 women were drafted or volunteered for military service.

Nothing like a good war to get the economy moving hey.
Polonius3Threads: 1,005
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 Jul 17, 11, 15:56    #3
That's a very good point. Obivously during the war GB and the US wanted the Russians to bear the brunt of the war losses at German hands. But after Churchill's 'iron curtian' speech, the US became strongly anti-Soviet with RFE and Voice of Ameirca, the Crusade for Freedom and trackign down Soviet lovers, commies and assorted pinkos mnad fellow travellers under good ol' Sen. Joe McCarthy. That woudl have neemn the ideal time to disgrace the USSR internationally with the truth about Katyń.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
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 Jul 17, 11, 16:40    #4
Polonius3:
That woudl have neemn the ideal time to disgrace the USSR internationally with the truth about Katyń.


In 1951 and 1952, in the background of the Korean War, a U.S. Congressional investigation chaired by Rep. Ray J. Madden and known as the Madden Committee investigated the Katyn massacre. It concluded that the Poles had been killed by the Soviets[25] and recommended that the Soviets be tried before the International Court of Justice.

Seems to me as if the disgracing was well and truly done.

I certainly don't recall Katyn ever being denied in the UK.
warszawskiThreads: 60
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 Jul 17, 11, 18:35    #5
Ironside:
All of them choose to lie about Katyn.


Katyn was a forbidden topic in postwar Poland. Censors suppressed all references to it. Even mentioning the atrocity meant risking reprisal. While Katyn was erased from Poland's official history, it could not be erased from historical memory. In 1981, Solidarity erected a memorial with the simple inscription "Katyn, 1940." Even that was too much. The police confiscated it. Later, the Polish Government, on cue from Moscow, created another memorial. It read: "To the Polish soldiers--victims of Hitlerite fascism--reposing in the soil of Katyn.

Polonius3:
That woudl have neemn the ideal time to disgrace the USSR internationally with the truth about Katyń.


The USA was involved in a war in Korea, they did not want to upset the Soviets.

Meanwhile, the Soviets obliterated references to Katyn on maps and in official reference works. Then, in 1969, Moscow did something strange that many believe was further calculated to confuse the issue further: it chose a small village named Khatyn as the cite for Belorussia's national war memorial. There was no apparent reason for the selection. Khatyn was one of 9,200 Belorussian villages the Germans had destroyed and one of more than a hundred where they had killed civilians in retaliation for partisan attacks. In Latin transliteration, however, Katyn and Khatyn look and sound alike, though they are spelled and pronounced quite differently in Russian and Belorussian. When President Nixon visited the USSR in July 1974, he toured the Khatyn memorial at his hosts' insistence. Sensing that the Soviets were exploiting the visit for propaganda purposes, The New York Times headlined its coverage of the tour: "Nixon Sees Khatyn, a Soviet Memorial, Not Katyn Forest."
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Jul 17, 11, 20:06    #6
Churchill and Roosevelt were arrogant types that patted each other's back all too often. Nonetheless, if Churchill was behind the motivation of the RAF boys then he did a very good job indeed. Thanks to the Poles who fought bravely and effectively. They had the benefit of excellent British planes in Hurricanes and Spitfires.
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Jul 17, 11, 22:10    #7
Putin's efforts in Chechnya hardly make him a saint either. For greedy reasons, he put many people off to their deaths.
SashaThreads: 2
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 Jul 17, 11, 22:19    #8
Marynka11:
but I think it shows the history very accurately.


What makes you feel it's accurate?
SokratesThreads: 19
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 Jul 17, 11, 23:03    #9
Wroclaw Boy:
Nothing about selling Poland then? Its not really fair to put Roosevelt in the same ball park, the guy died before he could tell his story.

Roosevelt gave Lwów to Russia on the basis of not giving a sh*t, the guy is in the same ball park as Churchill.
HarryThreads: 62
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 Jul 18, 11, 00:11    #10
Ironside:
Those people supported a lie about the real perpetrator and in this way become Stalins accomplices.

a) That is not what you claimed in your initial post. In your initial post you claimed "They lied to their nation and they used the police and secret services of both countries to prosecute those who dared question the official version - that Katyn massacre was a German crime." You have been repeatedly asked to provide details of such prosecutions and have repeatedly failed to do so. Instead you have changed your claim. Could you make it any more obvious that you were lying?
b) Could you post details of their alleged support for the lie? I very much doubt it but perhaps you can give us all another laugh by failing to provide any.
pawianThreads: 90
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 Jul 18, 11, 00:16    #11
All of them choose to lie about Katyn.

Yes, they were liars. Let them burn in hell. The only one who didn`t lie about Katyn was Hitler and Goebels. But they also burn in Hell.

d
BabinichThreads: 1
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Edited by: Babinich  Jul 18, 11, 02:54    #12
Seanus:
They had the benefit of excellent British planes in Hurricanes and Spitfires.


The Messerschmitt Bf 109E outclassed the Hurricane (capable of taking much punishment).

Sokrates:
Roosevelt gave Lwów to Russia on the basis of not giving a sh*t, the guy is in the same ball park as Churchill.


No; they were in different ballparks.
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Jul 18, 11, 12:09    #13
Thanks for that, Babi. Now please remind me who lost more planes? The Luftwaffe were destroyed in the air and many Brits were also able to bail out and lived to fight another day.

Anyway, I see this is now about Katyń. Tbh, nobody can really know for sure what the first two knew but it is likely that, intel being as it is, they knew roughly what was going on.
pammycatThreads: 2
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 Jul 18, 11, 14:32    #14
You obviously don't know a thing about modern mind control. It is not done using satellites or radio broadcasts. Not directly anyways. That is obsolete technology and the old standby of aluminum foil shielding is useless. Now it is done using subliminal messages in your cell phones combined with minute doses of psychotropic molecules that readily bind to acetylcholine receptors. The agents are ingested and absorbed in the small intestines but are masked in the body by metabolites of aspartame or fructose.
BarneyThreads: 16
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 Jul 18, 11, 14:35    #15
pammycat:
You obviously don't know a thing about modern mind control. It is not done using satellites or radio broadcasts. Not directly anyways. That is obsolete technology and the old standby of aluminum foil shielding is useless. Now it is done using subliminal messages in your cell phones combined with minute doses of psychotropic molecules that readily bind to acetylcholine receptors. The agents are ingested and absorbed in the small intestines but are masked in the body by metabolites of aspartame or fructose.

So true!
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Jul 18, 11, 14:43    #16
Who was she addressing?
BarneyThreads: 16
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 Jul 18, 11, 14:45    #17
I'm not sure but I think Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Jul 18, 11, 14:47    #18
Seanus:
Who was she addressing?

Them...
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Jul 18, 11, 14:48    #19
Hmm....it seemed a little wild and loose
isthatu2Threads: 13
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 Jul 18, 11, 14:54    #20
Wow,breaking news,Polititions lied!!!!
HarryThreads: 62
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 Jul 18, 11, 15:40    #21
isthatu2:
Wow,breaking news,Polititions lied!!!!

Well, we are still waiting for the OP to provide any kind of details or sources to support his wild claims. And you can't really call Stalin a politician.
DaisyThreads: 16
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 Jul 18, 11, 16:35    #22
pammycat:
Now it is done using subliminal messages in your cell phones combined with minute doses of psychotropic molecules that readily bind to acetylcholine receptors. The agents are ingested and absorbed in the small intestines but are masked in the body by metabolites of aspartame or fructose.

have you ever been to Glastonbury? There are plenty more there like you
IronsideThreads: 59
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 Jul 18, 11, 23:33    #23
isthatu2:
Wow,breaking news,Polititions lied!!!!

Not only lied but using powers available to them because of the war, they suppressed information about real perpetrators of the Katyn massacre.
That makes them accomplices in Stalin's crime.
Maybe that is the reason of their meek acceptance Stalin's demands in regards to Poland in Yalta and Potsdam.
isthatu2Threads: 13
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 Jul 19, 11, 01:40    #24
Ironside:
Not only lied but using powers available to them because of the war, they suppressed information about real perpetrators of the Katyn massacre.That makes them accomplices in Stalin's crime.

No it doesnt,at most they would be charged with misleading Police/tampering with evidence. Accomplices suggest prior knowladge of the offenders intention to commit a crime and colusion with the offender in commiting that crime.
Was it right for Churchill during the war to cover up a Soviet crime and blame it on the Nazis? Yes,your darn tooting it was the right decision at the time. The Red Army numbered how many 10s of million more men than the Polish forces in the west?
To quote Churchill, on Stalin "if Hitler had invaded Hell, he would at least have made 'a favourable reference to the Devil ". It was politic,nothing more. Poles are far too "romantic" about these things.

Harry:
Well, we are still waiting for the OP to provide any kind of details or sources to support his wild claims

The bit about secret Police was a bit far fetched but is fact that the true nature of katyn was covered up By the British government.
HarryThreads: 62
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 Jul 19, 11, 01:47    #25
Ironside:
Not only lied but using powers available to them because of the war, they suppressed information about real perpetrators of the Katyn massacre.
That makes them accomplices in Stalin's crime.

So you can't provide even a single source to support your lie that "they used the police and secret services of both countries to prosecute those who dared question the official version - that Katyn massacre was a German crime.": what a surprise.

Ironside:
Maybe that is the reason of their meek acceptance Stalin's demands in regards to Poland in Yalta and Potsdam.

You mean agreeing to his demand that there would be free and fair elections in Poland? Oh, sorry, was that Stalin's demand?
czarThreads: 4
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 Jul 19, 11, 22:35    #26
is this thread closed yet?

everyone is a liar you can all go home now

one point is that churchill offered poland to stalin atleast knowing of katyn.

that or they died never knowing the truth.

the issue arises in proper burial practices.
isthatu2Threads: 13
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 Jul 19, 11, 23:09    #27
czar:
one point is that churchill offered poland to stalin atleast knowing of katyn

God, i never knew Churchill was ,well,God..........................Ive said it before,I will say it again. Anything bad that happened 60 odd years ago is "evil britains" fault,everything bad after is "evil americas" fault.................are "we",the UK and USA the only two countries on this friggin planet that take responsibility for both our own actions and their consequences to our people???????
HarryThreads: 62
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 Jul 19, 11, 23:19    #28
czar:
one point is that churchill offered poland to stalin atleast knowing of katyn.

Interesting: Churchill insists that Stalin commits to free and fair elections in Poland and that is apparently 'offering Poland to Stalin'.
SeanBMThreads: 41
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 Jul 19, 11, 23:27    #29
czar:
churchill offered poland to stalin atleast knowing of katyn

In private, Churchill agreed that the atrocity was likely carried out by the Soviets. According to Count Edward Raczyński, Churchill admitted on 15 April 1943 during a conversation with General Sikorski: "Alas, the German revelations are probably true. The Bolsheviks can be very cruel."[58] However, at the same time, on 24 April 1943 Churchill assured the Soviets: "We shall certainly oppose vigorously any 'investigation' by the International Red Cross or any other body in any territory under German authority. Such investigation would be a fraud and its conclusions reached by terrorism."[59] Unofficial or classified UK documents concluded that Soviet guilt was a "near certainty", but the alliance with the Soviets was deemed to be more important than moral issues; thus the official version supported the Soviet version, up to censoring the contradictory accounts.Churchill asked Owen O'Malley to investigate the issue, but in a note to Foreign Secretary he noted: "All this is merely to ascertain the facts, because we should none of us ever speak a word about it."O'Malley pointed out several inconsistencies and near impossibilities in the Soviet version.[56] Later, Churchill sent a copy of that report to Roosevelt on the 13th August 1943. The report deconstructed the Soviet account of the massacre and alluded to the political consequences within a strongly moral framework but recognised that there was no viable alternative to the existing policy. No comment by Roosevelt on the O'Malley report has been found.[61] Churchill's own post-war account of the Katyn affair gives little further insight. In his memoirs, he refers to the 1944 Soviet inquiry into the massacre, which found the Germans guilty and adds, "belief seems an act of faith."

Wiki
czarThreads: 4
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 Jul 20, 11, 06:42    #30
thanks sean, *shake*


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