Should Auschwitz be closed and left to crumble ?

spiritusThreads: 52 Posts: 253 Joined: Oct 25, 06 ♂	Jan 26, 09, 07:08 #1
Discussion on BBC's website Two experts on Auschwitz argue for and against the idea that the former Nazi death camp should be allowed to crumble away. Historian Robert Jan Van Pelt says that once the last survivor has died it should be left for nature to reclaim, and eventually forgotten. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7827534.stm

hairballThreads: 34 Posts: 770 Joined: Dec 16, 07 ♂	Jan 26, 09, 08:15 #2
spiritus: Should Auschwitz be closed and left to crumble ? No.

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09 ♂	Edited by: sjam Jan 26, 09, 08:30 #3
spiritus: Should Auschwitz be closed and left to crumble? No. But it's a real disgrace that it has been allowed to become a holocaust theme-park instead of a memorial to those that died there!

♂

Edited by: HWPiel Jan 26, 09, 08:35 #4

First and foremost I am not a NAZI or German historian; my focus as a historian is Poland, and my area of interest is specifically Katyń.

From a historical-value perspective, no, of course Auschwitz should not be closed and left to crumble. I think, of all of the NAZI death camps, Auschwitz should be the one to be perserved as it is the largest and most represents the Final Solution. Who funds the maintenance and perservation of Auschwitz is a different dilemma altogether.

Why let the camp crumble into oblivion? Why not build a shopping mall over it? <-sarcasm.

As a historian, I am saddened to see many remarkable 'scars of history' covered up and hidden, destroyed, or removed; only to be forgotten about. I really think that the world lost a lot when Germany decided to destroy Hitler's Bunker - in order to keep neo-NAZIs out of there. Which I believe the German Historians cut off their noses to spite their faces. However, other historical sites have remained like the Nuremberg stadium where Hitler held his rallies.

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09 ♂	Jan 26, 09, 09:04 #5
HWPiel: I really think that the world lost a lot when Germany decided to destroy Hitler's Bunker I would have connected the whole Hitler bunker complex to Berlin's sewer system and let it flood with fresh Berliner excrement each day ..... a fitting (and rather ironic) memorial ;-)))

SwiteziankaThreads: - Posts: 525 Joined: Jun 17, 08 ♀	Jan 26, 09, 09:04 #6
sjam: holocaust theme-park ?????????? I don't think all these Jewish youths who come to Poland to visit Auschwitz treat it as a theme-park...

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Jan 26, 09, 09:04 #7

Adding my 'two euros' to the discussion, for whatever they're worth, I concur with the chorus calling for the Auschwitz Memorial Site outside the town of Oświęcim to be maintained, essentially forever, as a permanent reminder of the deep and eternal symbolism of the Nazi Shoah, not ONLY against the Jews, but, against every human being who perished at the hands of their oppressors!

It's shameful and unspeakable that the Polish government a number of years prior allowed even a petition to be sent around, requesting that this sacred area be converted into a disco for local youth!!! Luckily, public opinion nipped this horrific notion in the bud.

Such staggers the imagination and reminds us all how fragile the vessel of collective memory is, as well as how quickly we all forget.

♂

Jan 26, 09, 09:05 #8

the current economic downturn will lead to an outbreak of nationalism - it always does -
the subject will get addressed once again and then forgotten about once again as soon as the economy picks up

I believe the EU should fund preserving Auschwitz. They waste enough money on utterly useless projects, so why not spend the money on preserving the largest monument to man's inhumanity. there are enough idiots out there who believe that the holocaust did not happen in any case without concrete evidence crumbling away to dust

rinnieangelThreads: 4 Posts: 21 Joined: Jan 18, 09 ♀	Jan 26, 09, 09:10 #9
I don't think it will close, maintaining historical sites have become so much a part of western culture. The first writer had some good points, but I think that it will still give a good learning opportunity for people in the future with the Holocaust in the back of their minds.

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Edited by: sjam Jan 26, 09, 09:25 #10

Switezianka:

I don't think all these Jewish youths who come to Poland to visit Auschwitz treat it as a theme-park...

Really? This is a short film to help illustrate the point I was trying to make:

The Holocaust Tourist: Whatever Happened to Never Again?
Director: Jes Benstock
Year 2005

"An examination of Holocaust tourism, a cottage industry that has emerged since Steven Spielberg's Schindler's List."

National Center for Jewish Film review comment:

.......Glasgow filmmaker Jes Benstock brings a wry, quizzical voice and a surprising mix of animation and live action to consider the contemporary legacy of the Holocaust in Poland.

.......A whistle-stop tour from Auschwitz hot-dogs to Krakow's kitsch Judaica that asks: how is dark tourism changing history?

......Benstock cleverly mixes animation and live footage to hold the attention... and the use of quick cuts between kitsch ornaments, people smiling for the camera under the infamous Arbeit Machs Frei sign and letting children run about without a thought for those on a true pilgrimage of remembrance shine a startling light on our ignorance.

You can buy this from National Center for Jewish Film for $18.00

♂

Edited by: SeanBM Jan 26, 09, 09:28 #11

The article from the original post is not good, the argument is senseless.
Does anyone think that the majority of the people who go there are survivors?.
This is about what humans can do to each other.

I get the feeling this guy just wants to be controversial.

HWPiel:

Who funds the maintenance and perservation of Auschwitz is a different dilemma altogether.

Would the approximately 700000 tourists a year not pay for the maintenance?.

rinnieangel:

it will still give a good learning opportunity for people in the future with the Holocaust in the back of their minds.

Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08 ♂	Edited by: Prince Jan 26, 09, 09:33 #12
Well Auschwitz should be maintaned ... as to Discoteque in Oświęcim (not on terytory of former German Nazi death camp). It is 80 000 people town and I don't see the reason to not alow the people to have fun in this town.

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07 ♂	Jan 26, 09, 09:37 #13
"As to the discoteque in Oświęcim....." WITHIN the town's limits, obviously! The issue was however, that this planned discotheque was to be housed or built on the spot of the Auschwitz Memorial Site!!!!! That's the repugnant part, that's the spitting in the face of history.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Jan 26, 09, 09:39 #14
Marek: WITHIN the town's limits, obviously! The issue was however, that this planned discotheque was to be housed or built on the spot of the Auschwitz Memorial Site!!!!! I quite don't believe that...are there any links to have?

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07 ♂	Jan 26, 09, 09:44 #15
independentnews.org

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Edited by: Prince Jan 26, 09, 09:45 #16

Marek:

WITHIN the town's limits, obviously! The issue was however, that this planned discotheque was to be housed or built on the spot of the Auschwitz Memorial Site!!!!!That's the repugnant part, that's the spitting in the face of history.

No it wasn't on terrytory of former German Nazi Death camp it was in the town acutaly. Anny way in Aushwitz not only Jews have been killed but also Catholic Poles and at the begining it was camp for the Polish ... lets say "Catholics"...

Poland is one big graveyard and I don't think that somebody waned to build discoteque to split on Jewish and Polish "Catholics" victimes face...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp

the original concentration camp, served as the administrative center for the whole complex, and was the site of the deaths of roughly 70,000 people, mostly Poles and Soviet prisoners of war.

Bratwurst Boy:

I quite don't believe that...are there any links to have?

Now you see real aims of our German member of this forum ...

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,309 Joined: Apr 21, 08 ♂	Jan 26, 09, 09:47 #17
sjam: holocaust theme-park the exact impression i got when i visited it last year.

Wroclaw Boy	Jan 26, 09, 09:51 #18
SeanBM: Would the approximately 700000 tourists a year not pay for the maintenance?. I had no idea Auschwitz was free till i visited, must admit I was pleasantly surprised. Im sure all visitors would be more than willing to pay a standard entry fee for such a historical site.

♂

Jan 26, 09, 09:55 #19

Prince, the town of Oświęcim is said to be a lovely little town, much like many other small towns/villages throughout Europe. Dachau outside of Munich is in fact a picturesque area which I visited and even had a nice lunch. It was also a well-known artists' colony during the 19th century ('Die Dachauer Kuenstlerkolonie'). Alongside of course is the former Camp itself.

The planned disco WAS slated to be built uncomfortably close to the gates of the camp and the furor which ensued is more than understandable.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jan 26, 09, 09:58 #20
Marek: www.independentnews.org ??? Yes? Prince: Now you see real aims of our German member of this forum ... Clue me in...

Lotnik767Threads: 6 Posts: 210 Joined: Nov 12, 08 ♂	Jan 26, 09, 10:00 #21
No but they should charge jews a lot of money to see it as an vacation spot!! They need the money to have this thing going!!

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Edited by: Prince Jan 26, 09, 10:03 #22

Marek:

The planned disco WAS slated to be built uncomfortably close to the gates of the camp and the furor which ensued is more than understandable.

This discoteque is not going to be build there ... Polish public opinion agrees with you ... I don't.

Maybe many vistors don't know about it but ... this place is considered as the part of horrible Polish history in 20th century (on vicitimes side) so I would see this situaton in much different way.

♂

Jan 26, 09, 10:16 #23

Singling out Jewish from other visitors, for that matter, isolating Jews as 'foreigners' in today's Poland (as I've often heard done, f.ex. at Lublin's Catholic Uni. where those few Polish students of Jewish origin are classified as 'cudoziemcy' or 'foreigners') merely confirms the pariah status accorded Jewish fellow citizens!

If anything, ANY AND ALL Holocaust survivors, perhaps not extended to their immediate families et al., but in the very least the victims themselves should be able to enter the Site for free, regardless how rich or poor they are.

♂

Edited by: Prince Jan 26, 09, 10:22 #24

Marek:

Singling out Jewish from other visitors, for that matter, isolating Jews as 'foreigners' in today's Poland (as I've often heard done, f.ex. at Lublin's Catholic Uni. where those few Polish students of Jewish origin are classified as 'cudoziemcy' or 'foreigners') merely confirms the pariah status accorded Jewish fellow citizens!

Source ? :)

Marek:

If anything, ANY AND ALL Holocaust survivors, perhaps not extended to their immediate families et al., but in the very least the victims themselves should be able to enter the Site for free, regardless how rich or poor they are.

Well as to money for maintance:

http://en.auschwitz.org.pl/m/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id =523

[hr]

As to life in Oświęcim from young person point of view it isn't "cool" more and more people would like to have normal life there. Camp is camp and town is town. Oświęcim can't be town of sadness.

DaveyThreads: 17 Posts: 436 Joined: Jun 29, 07 ♂	Jan 26, 09, 10:44 #25
Prince: As to life in Oświęcim from young person point of view it isn't "cool" more and more people would like to have normal life there Well they need to move then, Oświęcim is not a big town to begin with....so it is quite noticable to have a concentration camp there

HatefulBunch397Threads: - Posts: 1,018 Joined: Nov 5, 08 ♀	Edited by: HatefulBunch397 Jan 26, 09, 10:45 #26
I've read the reason Jewish see it as a holocaust seperate from the Russians and Poles is because they were historically persecuted and discriminated against throughout Europe. They see Shoah as the ultimate culmination of centuries of hatred towards jews throughout Europe.

noimmigration

Edited by: noimmigration Jan 26, 09, 10:46 #27

it wasnt just jews who were burned in auswtiz, many slavs of differant religions and nationalities were slaughtered their because they were deemed by the nazis to be unfit to be part of the white race.

Those evil nazis considered the poles to be untermench or subhuman. they were considered capable and worthy to be subserviant.

I think that auswitz should be a memorial and a warning to racists, including the poles. I think the polish youth should treat outsiders with more respect because it was not long ago that they were being gassed there for being racially inferior.

Hitler and the nazis HATED slavs, they hated them as bad as they hated jews. I think everyone should remeber how much the nazis utterly despised poles, so that this horrible event never repeats itself.

Lir

Jan 26, 09, 10:57 #28

noimmigration:

I think the polish youth should treat outsiders with more respect because it was not long ago that they were being gassed there for being racially inferior.

Yes because Polish people should be subservient to the great British people who go to live in Poland and of course British people know how a Country should be run and how its people should live. I don't think so !!!!

Boring, pompous comments. Should the Polish people therefore tell the British youths that they sholuld treat outsiders with respect also. Get a grip mate on reality !!!!!!!

Hmmmm I am starting to think nonimmigration that you are another regular poster on here. Wonder if I am right ?

noimmigration

Jan 26, 09, 11:37 #29

Only a tiny amount of british people migrate to poland, those that do enter highly skilled trades such as teachers, company directors, doctors. etc.

Polish people migrate in hundreds and hundreds of thousands and the vast, vast majority work in low to no skilled work.

I think its simply the nature of british and polish people. the polish are a humble simple people, being eastern european and all.

while the british tend to be sophisticated, dynamic, and resourceful. This can be seen in the massive impact we have had on the world and europe the past 1000 years.

anyway what was your point ?

Lir

Jan 26, 09, 11:42 #30

noimmigration:

Only a tiny amount of british people migrate to poland, those that do enter highly skilled trades such as teachers, company directors, doctors. etc.

But of course, nothing but the best from Britain. Hahaha !

What a laugh, if it wasn't so ridiculous I would maybe write some more.

So are you going to tell us your real identity then ? Or shall we broadcast it here on this thread do you think ?

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