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Slavs populated Europe from around Vistula, Dnieper or from the Balkan along the Danube?

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Edited by: Crow Oct 4, 10, 21:55 #1

Slavs populated Europe from around Vistula, Dnieper or from the Balkan along the Danube?

i discussed in one other thread about this and i concluded that this dilemma represent very interesting question of Slavic past, even crucial.

Simplistically speaking, first Slavic foothold in Europe some authors see mainly in North/North-Eastern Europe (what is today`s Poland, Belarus and Ukraine), while some others positioning early Slavs on the South-East of Europe (what is today Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Bulgaria), on Balkan.

From the point of view of Poles, it is interesting to know- did Polish ancestors gave population to Slavic Balkan or maybe, Polish ancestors came from Balkan.

spot this...

There are two theories in regard to the original home of the Slavs, and these theories are in sharp opposition to each other. One considers the region of the Danube as the original home of the Slavs, whence they spread northeast over the Carpathians as far as the Volga River, Lake Ilmen, and the Caspian Sea. The other theory regards the districts between the Vistula and the Dnieper as their original home, whence they spread southwest over the Carpathians to the Balkans and into the Alps, and towards the west across the Oder and the Elbe.

Source: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Slavs, Original home and migrations
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14042a.htm

What you think of this dilemma? Let`s discuss and found out what is most logical answer

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Oct 4, 10, 23:25 #2
The most logical answer is that nobody really care about it!

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Edited by: Crow Oct 4, 10, 23:50 #3

Ironside:

The most logical answer is that nobody really care about it!

Why? Slavic countries developing fast and soon, citizens in Slavic countries may have more money and even higher standard of living then it is of those in western European or Arabic countries (for example). Everything in case with Slavs becoming interesting. i am simple fascinated with Slavic world. Everything what may be connected with Slavs is amazing. Why would i exclusively prefer interests for Egyptian pyramids, Chichen Itza, Taj Mahal, Eiffel Tower or for Chinese wall, when i have all that beautiful Slavic heritage in front of me? at least, that`s what i think. That`s what is logical to me

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Oct 5, 10, 00:08 #4
no buts or whays - its the way it is !

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Oct 5, 10, 00:13 #5
Ironside: no buts or whays - its the way it is ! money isn`t everything but it is much. Economically wealthy, rich with resources and spiritually consolidate, Slavic world would awake interests for Slavs in any sense. Interests would come from within Slavic world and from outside

♂ [Suspended]

Edited by: Crow Oct 10, 10, 01:51 #6

this still intrigues me and, i contemplated on this topic a lot of. This isn`t only historical but also political question

position of Vistula river in Poland/Europe

position of Dnieper river in Byelorussia, Russia and Ukraine

Listen, if we were to accept theories which suggests that Slavic expansion in Europe started from around and between Vistula and Dnieper rivers then we also must agree with theories about so called `Great migration of peoples` (and particularly of Slavs), all together with all consequences of those theories.

so called Slavic Migration Before ca. AD 700

Furthermore, it means that we have to accept that ancestors of Slavs were newcomers in Europe who just concentrated between Vistula and Dnieper from where they invaded rest of Europe. It means that many of today`s Slavic countries exist in territories that basically does not belong to Slavic world but were just overrun by old Slavs, while older owners of the land were assimilated, forced to retreat or annihilated by Slavic invaders.

If we accept theories of the late arrival of Slavs in Europe (6th-7th c.), by analogy, we have to admit that same as modern day Poland and Czech Rep., modern day Slavic South exist in originally non-Slavic realm (Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia and Bulgaria).

so called partly migration of Western Slavs into the Balkan

what i want to tell you,... if we accept such a learning about `late arrival of Slavs in Europe`, that suppose to be result of so called `Great migration`, we inevitable coming to conclusion that WWII anti-Slavic Nazi war propaganda was right. That way `Drive to the East (Drang nach Osten) could be explained as historical process of Germanic retaliation to Slavs. So, German extremists on Slavs were and are people of moral. Morally right, even when they are publicly `condemned` for their crimes on Slavs.

Why would Slavs accept to believe in such a false theories? Why would they accept to learning and even spread `history` that was write by those who are historically hostile on Slavs? >>>

The Slavic Ethnogenesis
Identifying the Slavic Stock and Origins of the Slavs

Compiled by Andrzej Borzyskowski
http://www.andrzejb.net/slavic/

2.6 The Great Slavic Mass-Migrations

In the 1st century (0-100 AD), the early Slavs were still situated around the 'Slavic Cradle', which now had expanded encompassing the Baltic to the Carpathians

The great mass migration of the Slavs from the ancient homeland of the 'Slavic Cradle' to the west, east and south of Europe began around the end of the 2nd century AD and continued to the middle of the 7th century AD.

fortunately, there are other theories, realistic ones that refusing to accept nonsenses in case with `late arrival of Slavs`- most numerous and widespread European ethnicity >>>

Paleolithic Continuity Theory (PCT), by Italian scientist Mario Alinei
http://www.continuitas.com/intro.html

(e) The totally absurd thesis of the so called ‘late arrival’ of the Slavs in Europe must be replaced by the scenario of Slavic continuity from Paleolithic, and the demographic growth and geographic expansion of the Slavs can be explained, much more realistically, by the extraordinary success, continuity and stability of the Neolithic cultures of South-Eastern Europe (the only ones in Europe that caused the formation of tells) (Alinei 2000, fc.b)

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Oct 10, 10, 02:03 #7
gee ! Crow imagine that I knew about it! My question is - and so what? **** !

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Oct 10, 10, 02:05 #8
I-S, he is raising a body of work that has fascinated many people for many years. It's an extension of ancestry.

Pinching PeteThreads: 1 Posts: 1,111 Joined: Feb 23, 08 ♂	Oct 10, 10, 02:08 #9
Crow: that beautiful Slavic heritage in front of me It's a good thread, man; I learned from it. - Pete.

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Edited by: Crow Oct 10, 10, 02:14 #10

Seanus:

he is raising a body of work that has fascinated many people for many years. It's an extension of ancestry.

i must. as a Serbian i still worship SLAVA (family custom dedicated to ancestors), in its Christianize form. We Serbians are last Slavs loyal to it. We keep it for all the Slavs. For me, any question of ancestors is religious question, too

Pinching Pete:

It's a good thread, man; I learned from it. - Pete.

Thanks man. best would yet to come

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Oct 10, 10, 02:19 #11
Slava, the great metal salute and binder of Slavic people. Many are in touch with their roots but discovery is an ongoing process :)

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Edited by: Crow Oct 10, 10, 13:05 #12

all in all, if Slavs wants to give chance to itself, to their children... they must take in consideration primary conclusion of PCT (Paleolithic Continuity Theory)/and similar theories about Slavic autohtonicity in Europe and, refuse theories that already initially annul Slavs as old native Europeans. It is so because PCT abandoning idea about ‘late arrival’ of the Slavs in Europe and offering scenario of Slavic continuity since Paleolithic. This way PCT tries (relaying on many scientific branches) to give valid explanation in case with fact that Slavs represent most numerous and far most widespread European ethnicity. Thru logical historical continuity PCT explaining demographic growth and geographic expansion of the Slavs. PCT as theory isn`t `favorable` (if we can say that way) on Slavs in all of its segments and approaches. No, its not the case. But, PCT does not negate Slavic contribution to European and global civilization. PCT represent good starting point for further research of Slavic history, that way European and human kind history. This way, PCT offering possibility for better understanding of history and suggests real tolerance among European. Tolerance based on truth, not on negation of Slavs or any other Europeans. In other words, with PCT, we talk about history in the spirit of tolerance.

From the angle of Poles (Czechs, Serbs, etc), only ideas of PCT may prevent anti-Polish (anti-Slavic) propaganda by some centers in the world that may be hostile on Poland and Polish people (Slavs in general). With PCT, Poles are natives in Poland. Without PCT, Poles are just newcomers in what is today`s Poland. With PCT, Slavs are old native population in Europe, possible even oldest European ethos.

♂

Edited by: FlaglessPole Oct 10, 10, 13:24 #13

Crow:

It means that many of today`s Slavic countries exist in territories that basically does not belong to Slavic world but were just overrun by old Slavs, while older owners of the land were assimilated, forced to retreat or annihilated by Slavic invaders.

Yes it is true, prior to the Hun invasion this used to be Magna Germania as reffered to by Romans. Though Slavs had an easy job later on, moving in on largely depopulated territories, where people were driven away by Huns.

♂

Edited by: southern Oct 10, 10, 15:08 #14

From my facial observations I believe that Slavs came from around Dnieper.One tribe went west and formed Poles and Czechs one went east north and formed Russians and one went sounth and became Serbs,Croats,Bulgarians.The western branch mixed with Germanics,the eastern with Tatars and the southern with old people living in Balkans like Thracians,Macedonians etc.
Of course they also formed some pure slavic communities according to geography of regions they inhabited.Slavs for sure came under Danube in 6th century because it is then when greek historians describe them and their descend for first time.In fact they were invited by byzantine emperors to populate areas heavily vandalized and having lost their population after the invasions of Goths and Huns.

AussieSheilaThreads: 6 Posts: 113 Joined: Aug 14, 10 ♀	Oct 10, 10, 16:25 #15
Neo-Nazis and Footy hooligans are rioting against gay parade in belgrade LOL!

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Oct 10, 10, 16:56 #16
I haven't seen this thing before. Someone tell me, what is this thing? I've heard of penis envy, but Polak envy? The mods don't let me do this, but this is how I picture you after scanning your posts.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,955 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Oct 10, 10, 18:16 #17
AussieSheila: Neo-Nazis and Footy hooligans are rioting against gay parade in belgrade LOL! It seems that Poles and Serbs share their love towards gays.

ZIMMYThreads: 10 Posts: 2,353 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Oct 10, 10, 19:24 #18
It's important to know or understand 'where we came from'. That's true in all its dimensions (origin of man, etc). As a slav, your historical perspectives are interesting. Thanks for all your work.

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Oct 10, 10, 19:50 #19

Crow:

...to be result of so called `Great migration`, we inevitable coming to conclusion that WWII anti-Slavic Nazi war propaganda was right. That way `Drive to the East (Drang nach Osten) could be explained as historical process of Germanic retaliation to Slavs. So, German extremists on Slavs were and are people of moral. Morally right, even when they are publicly `condemned` for their crimes on Slavs.

That's how it was!
I told you so Crowie....you were the invaders in Europe...."Drang nach Westen".

PS: But that isn't Nazi WWII propaganda but mainstream historical knowledge teached in all schools, like as "The earth is round" facts. (I don't want to know about serbian education though)

Crow:

Poles are just newcomers in what is today`s Poland.

Yup! :)

Just recently researchers "hacked" the code of Ptolemy who 2000 years back mapped Magna Germania.
Now it is possible to pinpoint towns and settlements who are now seen to be much older until now...about 1000 years older. A sensation!!!
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,720513,00.html

Look at all these 2000 years old towns where now Poland is.
All german settlements...much older than any Slavs, Poles, Sarmatians or whatever have build there!

Germany 2000 years back

♂ [Suspended]

Oct 10, 10, 20:08 #20

Crow:

if we accept such a learning about `late arrival of Slavs in Europe`, that suppose to be result of so called `Great migration`, we inevitable coming to conclusion that WWII anti-Slavic Nazi war propaganda was right. That way `Drive to the East (Drang nach Osten) could be explained as historical process of Germanic retaliation to Slavs. So, German extremists on Slavs were and are people of moral. Morally right, even when they are publicly `condemned` for their crimes on Slavs.

Such a conclusion is far from inevitable. Slavs are, like Germans, an Indo-European people and, like them, they are originally from the East. Germans migrated westward some time before the Slavs, but it does not necessarily follow that today's Slavic lands rightfully belong to Germans. Neither people is autochthonous.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Oct 10, 10, 20:21 #21
Des Essientes: Germans migrated westward some time before the Slavs Actually they migrated southwards from Scandinavia! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_tribes#Origins Map of the Nordic Bronze Age culture, around 1200 BCE: The expansion of the Germanic tribes 750 BC – AD 1:

FlaglessPoleThreads: 7 Posts: 1,394 Joined: Aug 19, 10 ♂	Edited by: FlaglessPole Oct 10, 10, 20:28 #22
Bratwurst Boy: Actually they migrated southwards from Scandinavia! he he have you ever doubted it, kiddo ? ;D But what the hell did you do to the language?? LoL ganz schreklich ;D

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Oct 10, 10, 20:38 #23
FlaglessPole: But what the hell did you do the language is beyond me ;D Gar nich wahr! ;)

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,955 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Oct 10, 10, 21:40 #24
I think Brno sounds better than Eburodunum.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Oct 10, 10, 21:51 #25
Well..it's what the Romans called it...the Germans had surely another name (much nicer of course) for it...like....Brünn! :)

ZIMMYThreads: 10 Posts: 2,353 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Oct 10, 10, 22:05 #26
Bratwurst Boy: Well..it's what the Romans called it.. When Romans did interact with slavs, they just put them in the German category. (They couldn't tell the difference). Romans certainly had their Gaul.

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Oct 10, 10, 22:07 #27

ZIMMY:

When Romans did interact with slavs, they just put them in the German category.

Well...Ptolemy got his infos from roman military...do you really think they mixed up their germanic counterparts with Slavs???
After all they reported about Slavs as different from Germanics too...Why should they do so if it had been all the same to them!
(And the Romans knew their Germans much better...having interacted and warred with the german tribes for centuries)

ROFL

Try better...

Back to the hacked Ptolemy code

...
The result is an index that pinpoints the hometowns of the legendary figures Siegfried and Arminius to within 10 to 20 kilometers (6 to 12 miles).
A new book, "Germania und die Insel Thule" ("Germania and the Island of Thule"), has just been published about the project. The publisher, Darmstadt-based WBG, calls it a "sensation."

A sensation..definitely! :)

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,955 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Oct 10, 10, 22:19 #28
The Romans never interacted with the Slavs because they lived beyond the borders of roman empire.The Greeks interacted with the Scythes who were likely Protoslavs and lived over the Danube all over Ukraine etc.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Oct 10, 10, 22:23 #29
southern: The Romans never interacted with the Slavs because they lived beyond the borders of roman empire. Erm...if "living beyond roman borders" had meant Romans knew nothing about them then the mighty Roman Empire wouldn't be what it was... Germania stayed outside of the Roman Borders after the battle of the Teutoburger Forest in 9 AD too, didn't stop Tacitus from writing his "Germania".

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,955 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Oct 10, 10, 22:36 #30
Yes,because Germans lived close near the borders.While Slavs lived far away.Generally the Romans never penetrated the german teritorry to reach the Slavs although they had slaves from slavic nations for sure.In Greece Scyth was like synonymous to slave and later it was so common that Slavs were conqured and turned into slaves that the name Slav came to mean the slave.

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