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The Soviet Story

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♂ [Suspended]

Nov 5, 09, 19:55 #91

Bratwurst Boy:

I wonder if the soviet commies knew of that as they marched under the huge flag of Marx

To be fair and its also in respect to Jews, most communists were poor buggers from podunk holes and for them it was all about a fight between haves and have nots, but a select group of higher ups had ulterior motives, in case of Jews it was purely racial in the case of Lenin and Trotsky ideological and Stalin was just a cold pragmatist, frag as many Slavs as you can.

A part of the issue is that Jews got used against Ukrainians and Poles and then abandoned, again after the war they were used to seat many of the chairs in commie Poland, the main issue in all this mess is that they just wont admit it, either because it'd mean admitting to all the nasty stuff or admitting that those Slavs used them.

♂

Edited by: MareGaea Nov 5, 09, 19:57 #92

Sokrates:

murder of Slavs was pretty big on their agenda.

I knew it! Every system is just designed to kill Slavs! But tell me this then: if they all are out to kill Slavs, why are there still so many? If every system is out to eliminate them, why are there still such a lot of Slavs nowadays?

Sokrates:

90% in Poland and apparently 100% in Ukraine or so the Ukrainians say

But that's what anti-semitic ppl always say. It's easier to blame it on the others than to have to admit it was your own ppl. Jaruzelski was Polish, I believe? Ah no, he must be a Jew as every communist in PL AND the Ukraine was a Jew anyway. And as far as the Ukraine is concerned, it doesn't surprise me at all that they claim every communist to be Jewish as the Ukrainians have just about invented anti-semitism and were more than happy to co-operate with the Nazis in exterminating them. After the war they failed in getting rid of them and yeah, well, you have to do something, right? So instead of embarrassingly admit that it was your own Ukrainian ppl, why not blame the Jews once again? Although history proves them wrong all the time, you have to admit they're pretty resilient in that respect.

sjam:

Wait a minute !!! I was wrong you are full of substance—its kind of slimy and brown and smells pretty foul !

LOL

>^..^<

M-G (it's Jew - Pole-time again! Get your tickets now and watch this amazing show!)

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Nov 5, 09, 20:00 #93
MareGaea: I knew it! Every system is just designed to kill Slavs! But tell me this then: if they all are out to kill Slavs, why are there still so many? If every system is out to eliminate them, why are there still such a lot of Slavs nowadays? Go fvck yourself, you've got Marks saying that in this very thread together with a source.

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08 ♂	Nov 5, 09, 20:04 #94
Sokrates: Go fvck yourself Ladies and Gentlemen, and AGAIN Sokrates uses foul language! You can place your bids now on when he will make use of such language the next time: within an hour, two hours, a day, two days??? Bets start at 5 Euros each and if you guessed right, you will receive triple that money back! Place your bets, Ladies and Gents! >^..^< M-G (showtime)

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Nov 5, 09, 20:07 #95
MareGaea: and AGAIN Sokrates uses foul language! Nope, i'm being polite, you've got a source and a direct quote but you chose to ignore it just like you chose to ignore every single goddamn source that accused Jews of crimes and keep posting baseless statements in the other thread.

♂

Edited by: MareGaea Nov 5, 09, 20:14 #96

Sokrates

Nope, I don't ignore them, I read them and after a few lines I know where it is heading. I also looked at another work of Lech Maziakowski, see link below and it's not surprising that this guy comes up with a statement that Marx calls upon all Slavs to be killed. Fits perfectly in the image you're trying to paint.

http://wirtualnapolonia.com/2008/09/28/czy-holokaust-moze-wydarzyc-sie -w-ameryce-lech-maziakowski/

You're being polite? You don't even know what that is, do you? If you keep posting things based on the same kinda sources, with an exception or two, you might as well post without quotes. It doesn't make any difference at all then. But you wouldn't understand.

>^..^<

M-G (betting is still open, Ladies and Gents)

♂ [Suspended]

Nov 5, 09, 20:29 #97

MareGaea:

Nope, I don't ignore them

You ignored every single one, want me to create a massive off topic with my every source and your direct response (lack of it)? The only reaction of yours was to question the validity of arguments of one of the renown Israeli scholars who condemns his own goverment for its racist policies towards Poland because of what? Ah thats right you havent really produced any argument as to why he'd lie.

♂

Nov 5, 09, 20:42 #98

Sokrates

Don't do that, the bets are still open at the moment. I'd suggest you wait an hour or two, when the bets have closed.

Critizing one's own government is no proof that it's true - in NL we have plenty of scientists who critise our government, yet they are just opinions and they don't necessarily have to be true. Also, the Israeli professor would be the only credible source you have brought forward and you keep hammering on that as if you are proud of yourself for finding a non anti-semite source for perhaps the first time in your life.

On the other hand, you have diminished your own Polish renowned scolars with a different opinion as liars. And there are more than just one. And you keep nagging about how I take note of the opinion of ONE Israeli professor who critises his government? Hm.

>^..^<

M-G (ppl, bets are still open on the question, "when will Sokrates start to use foul and insulting language again?" Come on ppl, place your bets now!)

♂

Nov 5, 09, 21:28 #99

MareGaea:

Same would go for the Jews then, wouldn't it?

MG, do not pretend as if you didn't understand. To some extent same of course went for Soviet Jews; but we're talking now about the initial communistic "elite" who executed Tsar's family and overthrew monarchy in Russia causing the later 70 years.

MareGaea:

It's easy to diminish the role of the Russians themselves and to emphasize the role of the Jews in the CP.

yes it is, because the role of Jews is obvious. Btw what is CP in your dictionary?

MareGaea:

I know it's a way of cleaning oneself up after something like that happened: "but it wasn't us, it was them!"

Actually most of Russians do not try to whitewash themselves as they're simply not aware of your accusation. I just wanted to share my understanding of why Russians forgave Germans however some of them are still naturally suspicious towards Jews and why there are so many jokes about Jews in Russia like about no other nation.

MareGaea:

Jews were not responsible for all the horrors that happened.

Of course not. No one here shifts the whole blame upon them. Some poor human beings who beat their breast proudly saying "I'm Russian" were also involved in mass murders but "din-din", MG... we're talking about those who put chestnut in the fire.

MareGaea:

It was the CP as a whole who was.

MG-called CP (is that the USSR? if so then pls don't try to look smart using home-made abbreviatures, that makes a bad showing) was a Jewish invention.

MareGaea:

I don't deny that there were Jews present, and to state that the top echelon of the CP was 100% Jewish is nonsense.

You're now playing with words cause to the best of my memory no one has said it was all Jewish. However I still insist on that some departments consisted by 98-100% out of people with Jewish background.

MareGaea:

Stalin for one, was not a Jew and he had the final say in every decision made. Molotov was not a Jew. Chroetzjov was not a Jew, Gromiko was not a Jew

Is that you best try? Looks like you just scrapped out from your memory the only ones you knew. Chroetzjov? Is that a Dutch spelling of Khruschev? Do you know when he was a Gensek? Gromiko... lol :))) as for Molotov - yes he was one of the only Russians at that time who was totally controlled, addicted from alcohol, being as we say "kozel otpuschenija" (scapegoat).

MareGaea:

In short, I think the accusation of the super big contribution of Jews to the CP is highly exaggerated.

In short you can find books and articles written by numbers of honest Jews about Jewish contribution to Russian revolution. If you're interested I may try to look for names. I also suggest that you read one of the last Solzhenitsin's book "Russians and Jews. 200 years together". That's however quite doubtful you'll find a book in Europe. As long as he bashed Soviet regime for murders, he was fine but after he pointed out who were originators of the disaster he dramatically disappeared from TV/press media even here in Russia. That was basically his response for constant condemnation of Russians.

Ok... I'll translate you some lists (basic ones)...
My apologies for the translation of some terms. I'm not so good in English as to translate weird (even in Russian) communistic names.

Central Committee of Social-Democratic Labour Party (later known as "bolsheviks"):
(pseudonim in brackets):

1. Bronstein (Trozky) - jew
2. Ul'yanov (Lenin) - Blank - half jew, half Kalmyk
3. Apfelbaum (Zinoviev) - jew
4. Lurje (Larin) - jew
5. Krylenko - Russian (wow!!! yet with a Ukranian last name)
6. Mandelstam (Lunacharskiy) - jew
7. Radomilsky (Urickiy) - jew
8. Kogan (Volodarskiy) - (put it here yourself)
9. Rozenfeld (Kamenev) - jew
10. Midovic - jew
11. Sverdlov - jew
12. Nahamkes (Steklov) - jew
("Jews in Russia and in the USSR" A. Dikij, 1994)
As you see many jews for some reason took Russian last names as pseudonims. In other departments situation was even worse (fluctuation of their number 76-100%.
Let me stop here, pls. Speaking about jews is wasting of time... I just still cherish a hope that you'll finally learn something.

MareGaea:

>^..^<

Btw do you copy-paste it from some certain place or make a new one every time?

(Sasha wishes he had as much free time as MG has)

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08 ♂	Edited by: MareGaea Nov 5, 09, 21:35 #100
Sasha CP = Communist Party. Sasha: Btw do you copy-paste it from some certain place or make a new one every time? I make a new one every time, because copy-paste would take much more time. Sasha: (Sasha wishes he had as much free time as MG has) Maybe Sasha doesn't type as fast as M-G does? And I think quick. Sorry :) >^..^< M-G (about 255 bpm on a computer keyboard with ten fingers)

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Nov 5, 09, 22:39 #101
MareGaea: MareGaea Edited by: MareGaea Today, 21:35 I like how you completely ignored all of Sasha' points on the role of Jews in the Communist Party :)) Got any comment on higher echelons being made up at least 50% of Jews across the board? True? False? Any links with the reply?:))))

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08 ♂	Nov 5, 09, 22:49 #102
I didn't ignore them, I just gave a quick answer to his burning questions as something more important demanded my attention at home. And I edit a lot because I wanted to add something. I am still busy, but I will address his points if not today, then certainly tomorrow or in the weekend. >^..^< M-G (busy)

♂

Edited by: lesser Nov 5, 09, 23:08 #103

sjam:

Ofcom is not the state censor of programming it is the consumer watchdog of broadcasting which is an entirely different thing altogether.

This is similar difference like between communism and democratic communism. Names and style change but goal is always the same.

sjam:

Ofcom is not the state censor of programming it is the consumer watchdog of broadcasting which is an entirely different thing altogether.

Where is this consumer? Politically, state nominated officials protect what they consider interest of consumer. This is quite obvious that The Soviet Story contain harmful material, some footages are horrific (famine etc). This is also offensive material duo to suggestion that communists actually committed crimes and even collaborated with national socialists (sorry, I should write right wing mysterious "Nazis").

sjam:

the appointment of the head of Ofcom is appointed by the government of the day whether it is Labour (Socialist) or Tory (Conservative centre right) it doesn't matter.

Of course, it doesn't matter, because two parties consist two lungs of mainstream socialist establishment. There is hardly anything conservative or right wing in modern Tory policy. This is why UKIP party is more and more popular, stealing previous Tory voters. While Tories stealing non-conservative electorate of Labour Party.

sjam:

That this film was funded by some countries that were, during WWII directly, involved in the Holocaust as allies of and collaborators of the Nazis as were the Soviets seems to me a deliberate attempt to mislead... we (in UK) have an old expression 'kettle calling the pot black' which kind of sums them up rather neatly!

Countries did not fund this documentary. Beside of that Poland was not allied with Berlin's socialist regime.

Your way of thinking is very complicate. Let me sum up your positions.

People from countries which suffered under Soviet oppression cannot be trusted.
People from countries which collaborated with Third Reich cannot be trusted.
Only western socialist establishment could be trusted about nature of communism. Like Walter Duranty once did and won Pulitzer later.
Currently Western socialist establishment have no intention to explain true nature of communism duo to general lack of interest of British consumers.

It is clear that enough objective documentary that would satisfy your expectations cannot be produced or put on the list of historical documentaries to broadcast.

sjam:

But the intention of the programme funders and makers seems to focus only on Nazi-Soviet Alliance when in reality it was Nazi-Latvian-Lithuanian-Italian-Danish-Irish-Soviet Alliance

Really? Latvians and Lithuanians would be surprised if they would find out that their states were in alliance with the SU. Of course if you would mention some documents to confirm this claim, this pill could be easier to swallow. I still have strong impression that you would wish watch documentary about collaboration in the Baltic states rather about Soviet crimes. These are two different subjects.

What is more, your post have collectivist character, if those people would be personally responsible. This is very wrong attitude.

sjam:

David Irving seemed to suggest they were not genuine and as I mentioned he has personal experience of cleverly forged documents.

The guy is well known apologist for the Third Reich.

sjam:

Outside of Poland there are very few of us that are at all interested what happens or happened inside of Poland. Period.

Stop stubbornly repeat that this film was about Poland. Title cannot be more suggestive and so called "western fascination with Russia" really exist.

MareGaea:

not everybody is smart

not everybody is leftist :)

MareGaea:

Stalin was already a criminal before the Russian Revolution.

You could expect that at least an historian call this event properly. Communist revolution, among other "anti-" also anti-Russian by its nature.

MareGaea:

Hitler was just a frustrated little citizen with a personality disorder

Aside question. Do you think that current model of leftist re-socialization would help Hitler to "return to the society"?

Sasha:

but we're talking now about the initial communistic "elite" who executed Tsar's family and overthrew monarchy in Russia causing the later 70 years.

This was bad move according to me or you, but I suspect that M-G consider late Russian monarchy equally bad if not worse than Soviet totalitarian communist regime.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Nov 5, 09, 23:08 #104
MareGaea: I am still busy You're always busy when someone provides a proven thesis and you cant really undermine it, you'll respond to it like you did to everything else:))))

♂

Edited by: MareGaea Nov 6, 09, 00:06 #105

The Jews were participating in the early years of the Russian Revolution (yes, that's how the West calls it - Lesser) and the settlement of the new Communist Régime. Lenin sought to emancipate the Jews as a reaction to the anti semitic tendencies and pogroms under the rule of the Czars of the 19th century. To him it anti semitism meant nothing more than to divert the hatred of the working classes from the exploiters to the Jews. Naturally the Jews were grateful for this opportunity to get rid of the pogroms and the recurring killing of their ppl. This participation of Jews in the higher echelons did not last long: the great purges Stalin pulled through in the 1930 removed many high-ranking Jew from the party top and several Jewish departments were made redundant. Jews were never the majority in the CPSU.

But besides all that, Ukrainians helped the Nazis exterminate the Jews. Latvians and Lithuanians helped the Nazis. Russians helped the Nazis. What reason would the Jews have NOT to take it out on them after the war? Should they still be grateful to a ppl which proscecuted them and killed them at every opportunity they got?

Jews were acknowledged as a ppl within the Soviet Union with their own language and habits. Yet they have been approached with hatred long before that, so what reason would the Jews have not to participate in a system that promised them equality and finally get rid of that retarded anti semitism?

In short, the Jews were short time benefactors of the Russian Revolution, but lost out in the long run, as later on they became proscecuted just like anybody else in the Soviet Union.

And, Sokrates, I have undermined your statements so often - only difference is that you call the arguments I bring forth mere lies and the academics to prove it, liars. Yet you bring one academic who critisises the IL government as sole proof that it actually happened. Well, I would say, go help Joe in his garden, at least you do something useful then.

>^..^<

M-G (it were the Czars that organized the pogroms into an official state policy)

osiolThreads: 59 Posts: 4,714 Joined: Jul 25, 07 ♂	Nov 6, 09, 00:18 #106
TheOther: Marx and Engels advocated to kill Slavs? They have a hard time in Cuba with the communist government there. They just can't find any Slavs to kill.

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08 ♂	Edited by: MareGaea Nov 6, 09, 00:28 #107
osiol Well, Cubans are actually very distantly related to the Slavs. And I mean literally very distantly. Didn't you know that, Donkey? Edit: latest word is that they kill Polish tourists now. >^..^< M-G (is going to hit the sack)

cheehawThreads: 9 Posts: 831 Joined: Oct 10, 09 ♀	Nov 6, 09, 01:53 #108
joepilsudski: ...The first law passe in the Soviet Union was a law against 'anti-semitism' punishable by death. Do you have a good resource for that, good documentation? that would be the clincher wouldn't it.

♂

Edited by: Sasha Nov 6, 09, 08:51 #109

MareGaea:

MareGaea

Here's the Lenin's speech about antis-m (with subtitles)
As the matter of fact there's nothing wrong with what he said (you MG in way say the same thing), however for some reason his way to make people equal started from ruining Christian (both Orthodox and Catholic) churches and prosecuting Christian priests. How comes? :))
Btw he's now lying as a soft toy several kilometers to the north from me. :((

lesser:

This was bad move according to me or you, but I suspect that M-G consider late Russian monarchy equally bad if not worse than Soviet totalitarian communist regime.

Russian monarchy was far from being perfect always holding peasants under the heel, however it wasn't as killing as later communism. People were oppressed but alive.

MareGaea:

Lenin sought to emancipate the Jews as a reaction to the anti semitic tendencies and pogroms under the rule of the Czars of the 19th century.

This is not true that Jews were under the constant threat of pogroms at that time. This is just another slogan that people are expected to learn by heart so that it will be much easier to believe in it. The only thing that really existed at that time was that Jews were not allowed to be within higher level of power. However if you take a look at merchancy, financiers, craftsmen or clerks you may surprisingly find out almost half of them were Jews. As for pogroms... Why were there no antigerman pogroms? Germans were successful, sometimes didn't speak Russian (that's why we call them "nemci"... "nemoy"=mute), there were more Germans in Russia than Jews... think at leisure!

MareGaea:

This participation of Jews in the higher echelons did not last long: the great purges Stalin pulled through in the 1930 removed many high-ranking Jew from the party top and several Jewish departments were made redundant.

This is not true either. It was the second stage of communistic era when solely antichristian struggle became to have a features of anticlass struggle. If you still take a look at Stalin's surrounding you may find there over 50% of Jews. There were also lots of Jews among NKVD officers and chiefs of concentration camps (one of their favourite places). Stalin wasn't not antisemitic, he was paranoid and scared to lose his power and he got rid of anybody who he found more or less suspicious.

MareGaea:

In short, the Jews were short time benefactors of the Russian Revolution, but lost out in the long run, as later on they became proscecuted just like anybody else in the Soviet Union.

So that one can even detect a relation between people killed and the quantity of jews at the helm. <Jews, <executions. :))

MareGaea:

it were the Czars that organized the pogroms into an official state policy

Please open a history book.

Be an honest Jew, MG. You'll see how people will like it. :))

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,955 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Nov 6, 09, 08:59 #110
At the end Stalin prevailed who was not a Jew and the jews in central commitee took their usual path.

♂

Nov 6, 09, 09:10 #111

In reference to Marx and the Slavs. He had contempt for many peoples including the Slavs. Socialists don't like to quote him on his racist views, and his views that certain races have no right to live are a big faux pas in socialist circles, since they are fighting racism, ani-Semitism, and homophobia.

Marx's and Engel's quotes:

http://marxwords.blogspot.com/2005_04_01_marxwords_archive.html

Interestingly, he considers Poles and Hungarians as worth living. Aryans.

Professor Watson, who speaks in the film:

Hitler's program demanded central economic planning, which was at the heart of the socialist cause; and genocide, in the 1930s, was well known to be an aspect of the socialist tradition and of no other. There was, and is, no conservative or liberal tradition of racial extermination. The Nazis, what is more, could call on socialist practice as well as socialist theory when they invaded the Soviet Union in 1941 and began their exterminatory program. That is documented by Rudolf Hoess in his memoir Kommandant in Auschwitz (1958). Detailed reports of the Soviet camp system were circulated to Nazi camp commandants as a model to emulate and an example to follow.

Soviet exterminations under Lenin and Stalin may have totaled 25 to 30 million, which (if the estimate is accepted) would represent about three times the Nazi total of nine million. That seems to matter very little now. My Austrian policeman was still certain that racism is right-wing. As are a lot of people. After a recent bomb outrage against a synagogue in Luebeck, the German press instantly assumed, before anyone was charged with the crime, that the Right was to blame. The fact that there is no non-socialist tradition of genocide in Europe has not even been noticed.

That is an impressive act of suppression.

http://jonjayray.tripod.com/watson.html

♂

Edited by: sjam Nov 6, 09, 09:20 #112

Sokrates:

Got any comment on higher echelons being made up at least 50% of Jews across the board? True? False? Any links with the reply?:))))

You can answer this yourself :-)))

Sokrates:

Sever Płocker (a Jewish publicist) for example claims 38.5% of highest tier positions in communist party were occupied by Jews (which is quite a well know statistic btw).

Sokrates:

(which is quite a well know statistic btw).

Your own link says this about that well known statistic:

In 1934, 38.5 percent of those holding the highest positions in the Soviet security apparatus, were of Jewish origin. But they were gradually eliminated during the subsequent purges.

♂

Edited by: 1jola Nov 6, 09, 09:42 #113

cheehaw:

'anti-semitism' punishable by death.

Works, Vol. 13, July 1930-January 1934, Moscow: Foreign Languages Publishing House, 1955, p. 30

"Anti-Semitism: Reply to an Inquiry of the Jewish News Agency in the United States"

Joseph Stalin

In answer to your inquiry:

National and racial chauvinism is a vestige of the misanthropic customs characteristic of the period of cannibalism. Anti-semitism, as an extreme form of racial chauvinism, is the most dangerous vestige of cannibalism.

Anti-semitism is of advantage to the exploiters as a lightning conductor that deflects the blows aimed by the working people at capitalism. Anti-semitism is dangerous for the working people as being a false path that leads them off the right road and lands them in the jungle. Hence Communists, as consistent internationalists, cannot but be irreconcilable, sworn enemies of anti-semitism.

In the U.S.S.R. anti-semitism is punishable with the utmost severity of the law as a phenomenon deeply hostile to the Soviet system. Under U.S.S.R. law active anti-semites are liable to the death penalty.

J. Stalin January 12, 1931

Goebbels said it like this in:
"Die Urheber des Unglücks der Welt," Das Reich, 21 January 1945, pp. 1, 3.
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb64.htm

There is a law in the Soviet Union that punishes anti-Semitism — or in plain English, public education about the Jewish Question — by death. The expert in these matters is in no way surprised that a leading spokesman for the Kremlin said over the New Year that the Soviet Union would not rest until this law was valid throughout the world.

♂

Edited by: southern Nov 6, 09, 09:49 #114

Yes,jewish communists like Trotsky had in mind an international communist apparatus and revolution while the domestic not international communists like Stalin aimed for a soviet centered communist aparatus with revolution only in one country with perspective for revolution export.
I mean for Jews like Trotsky the international communism power was far more important than the state of communism in just one country and he would sacrifice easily the latter to achieve the first.
Stalin on the other hand was more esoteric and supported communism in just one state.The Jews and inernationalists who resisted to him were eliminated.It is doubtful if SU would have survived if the internationalist part prevailed.

So you were not specifically prosecuted as a Jew or a nationalist Pole but as an enemy of soviet union.

♂

Edited by: MareGaea Nov 6, 09, 10:03 #115

1jola

Like said, the Bolsheviks saw anti-semitism as a way to divert the working class from it's anger towards their exploiters, the upper class and thus distracting the workers from their main struggle, the class-struggle. But that's not particularily Stalin's view as such. Lenin mentioned this as well; Stalin was merely parotting him in this speech.

But in core I think it's good: in an ideal society there is no room for racism and anti semitism. An ideal society would be a society where there is only intolerance for the intolerant.

I think honestly that Marxism wasn't such a bad idea at all - in theory it's the best concept ever: everybody equal, isn't that the way it's supposed to be in the first place? It only went wrong when the practice showed that there are certain individuals who felt themselves a little more equal than others. If you parallel Marxism to the Christian religion, you would find that the base-principle is actually the same: the Christians believe that everybody is equal under God and the Marxists believe that everybody is equal under (the Party?) sun. Strangely enough you see it happen a lot of times that systems who are basically not that different from each other are each other's worst enemies. Most Russians now condemn the Communist System and choose religion instead. In a way, Russia is still feudal.

However, this morning I read the reaction of Putin to the fact that General Motors suddenly withdrew it's plans for a plant in Russia and I learned to my surprise that he was amazingly calm about it. No rethoric, no bombast, could it be that he is mellowing? Or is he just getting old? :)

Edit: the fact that Stalin made anti semitism made punishable by death is understandable. Everybody who claims that this is not the case is either an anti semite himself or doesn't understand the generally accepted rules in a (civilized) society. And besides, anti semitism was THE symbol of Czarist Russia in the 19th century.

>^..^<

M-G (coffee)

♂

Edited by: sjam Nov 6, 09, 10:15 #116

lesser:

his is similar difference like between communism and democratic communism. Names and style change but goal is always the same.

Garbage! You are obviously a product of Polish communist indoctrination and mistakenly believe what may have applied to Poland applies to the 'west'. You obviously also have no understanding of western media if you did you would not make such ill informed statements.

lesser:

Where is this consumer?

Did you not read the Ofcom Broadcasting code I linked to? If you had you will have clearly seen what consumer interests are protected by the Ofcom code. Does Poland not have any consumer protection code or laws to protect consumers from unscrupulous advertising practices such as advertising high sugar content drinks and foods on children's TV? Maybe not being a post-communist country Poland might not yet be socially developed enough to address these important consumer issues?

lesser:

Stop stubbornly repeat that this film was about Poland.

Okay, okay I accept that Katyń isn't about Poland its about the Falkland Islands, my mistake you win!

lesser:

Let me sum up your positions.

No, let me because it will be more accurate:

The national conservative right political parties whose own countries role in WWII was one of collaboration, alliance and complicity in the Holocaust alongside the Nazis cannot be trusted to make an objective documentary about Nazi-Soviet alliance without reference to their own countries relationship with the Nazi regime and its alliances of WWII.

lesser:

I still have strong impression that you would wish watch documentary about collaboration in the Baltic states rather about Soviet crimes. These are two different subjects.

I wonder if the same political parties would fund the making of a documentary about collaboration with the Nazis in the Baltic states? I think not? What do you think?

I have posted earlier in this thread what documentary I would like to watch, but to repeat especially for you:

I would like to see a documentary about the anti-communist resistance movements in Poland 1944-1956(?) and the Polish communist crimes perpetrated against this movement. This film would also include extent of the role that General Anders played in directing the resistance and would include the anti-communist intelligence networks that were created in Poland which included former Polish cichociemni and former Gestapo and Abwehr agents working together against the communists in Poland and Eastern Europe.

I would also like very much to see a documentary about Second Polish Corps role in smuggling Jews out of Europe to the then Palestine, and the help it gave to Irgun against the British, also the Second Polish Corps extensive activities in smuggling huge amounts of gold from Egypt into Palestine. Also a film about Anders relationship with Gen. Franco and fascist Spain after the war and Anders alliance with Spain for a WWIII .... my list goes on :-))

ps. I am also looking forward to seeing proof that the Soviet Story has indeed been 'banned' by mainstream broadcasters? Someone must have the rejection letters to hand??? No???

♂

Nov 6, 09, 10:21 #117

MareGaea:

It only went wrong when the practice showed that there are certain individuals who felt themselves a little more equal than others.

That's why such theories stay better theories and only work in books with idealised people.
Ordinary humans just aren't that way and the best intentions are always going to be corrupted and abused and misinterpreted by humans.

That's why such dogmas, any dogma actually, will always go wrong "in practice" and only spell doom, opression, dictatorship...if that's learned in the end the whole catastrophe of the last centuries was not for nothing.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,955 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Nov 6, 09, 10:30 #118
Capitalism is also a dogma.Lessaiz fare,free enterprise are undisputable ideas(are they?)

♂

Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 6, 09, 10:56 #119

southern:

Capitalism is also a dogma.Lessaiz fare,free enterprise are undisputable ideas(are they?)

It acknowledges much more the nature of humans and never promises equality as a birthright, quite to the contrary.
Combined with care for the weakest members of society it proves to be the most successful model mankind came up with.
The possibility of changing upwards is one of the biggest motivations for humans and one of the strenghts of capitalism.
Probably it works with the majority of the people because it fits them naturally instead of trying to change them to make them fit to a dogma!

♂

Edited by: sjam Nov 6, 09, 11:06 #120

Sokrates:

you chose to ignore it just like you chose to ignore every single goddamn source

Talking about ignoring?

Sokrates:

90% in Poland

Sokrates:

but then again you did claim Poles run German concentration camps :)))))

Well, still waiting for your non-existant links to either IPN document you said stated 90% of NKVD were Jews or where I actually claimed Poles ran German concentration camps in WWII?

Bratwurst Boy:

never promises equality as a birthright,

Excellent point! We are all born unequal but we should an have the equal right to develop to...

Sokrates:

Fvcking anti-Polish racist cvnt:))

... our full potential :-))))

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