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Stalin’s Grand Design to Start World War II


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szczeciniakThreads: 5
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 Sep 21, 09, 07:51    #1
wards of Soviet GRU defector Viktor Suvorov
Stalin tricked Hitler into starting the war
link to explanation: http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/geo/pastanalysis/2009/0216.ht ml

it does make sense ?thou!!

plk123Threads: 30
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 Sep 21, 09, 08:08    #2
oh man, seanus is gonna love you. :D
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Sep 26, 09, 22:19    #3
Well, not really. Russia actually warned America of the impending attacks so I don't see a global agenda. Also, how many American troops serve with the Russians against the Chechens? 0 I believe.

Stalin's main strength was that he preserved the Red Army to the point that they were always likely to stave off any threat from the Nazis and then catch them when vulnerable.

Sorry plk123, you are wrong once again.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Sep 26, 09, 22:35    #4
Seanus:
Stalin's main strength was that he preserved the Red Army to the point that they were always likely to stave off any threat from the Nazis and then catch them when vulnerable.

Really?

The mainstream history has it the other way around!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army#Purges

...
The late 1930s saw the so-called Purges of the Red Army Cadres, which occurred concurrently with Stalin's Great Purge of Soviet society. In 1936 and 1937, at the orders of Stalin, thousands of Red Army officers were dismissed from their commands...

...
The result was that the Red Army officer corps in 1941 had many inexperienced senior officers. While 60% of regimental commanders had two years or more of command experience in June 1941, and almost 80% of rifle division commanders, only 20% of corps commanders, and 5% or fewer army and military district commanders, had the same level of experience....[79]

http://russian-ukrainian-belarus-history.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_ death_of_marshal_tukhachevskii

The Death of Marshal Tukhachevskii
Stalin’s Purges Cost One of the 1930s’ Best Military Minds

It is said it was a german plot from the Abwehr to "leak out" "evidence" abou spies in the army which made Stalin run amok....
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Sep 26, 09, 22:37    #5
Do you believe everything you read, BB?
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Sep 26, 09, 22:41    #6
Seanus:
Do you believe everything you read, BB?

Well...the purges are a fact.
The sources are coming now right from the russian archives...there is no reason to doubt them.

Especially as german soldiers and officers saw the effects close up. Soviet soldiers and especially officiers more fearful of their own NKVD than the german enemy, inexperienced, without skill, needing and waiting to be told every step etc....no smart Auftragstaktik for the soviet soldier!
They were commonly as scared of their back as of their front...
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Sep 26, 09, 22:42    #7
Oh, I'm not doubting the fact that purges took place. I just doubt the numbers. Why would Stalin weaken his own forces?
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Sep 26, 09, 22:44    #8
Seanus:
Why would Stalin weaken his own forces?

Why did Stalin kill all these millions of his own people at all?
He was paranoid. Everybody smart enough for an independent thought presented a danger for him in his mind.

In my opinion Russia suffers from this braindrain even today....

[url=http://books.google.com/books?id=PGANqVNdjKQC&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq =Stalin+purges+red+army+because+of+german+abwehr&source=bl&ots=hhFNsW1 RTS&sig=FYhtphTxf9d464vgdM1H3KiCGzo&hl=en&ei=Pn2-Ss2dI5TK_gb-ztFb&sa=X &oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=16#v=onepage&q=Stalin%20purges%20red% 20army%20because%20of%20german%20abwehr&f=false][/url]
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Sep 26, 09, 22:46    #9
Doesn't it strike you as strange, from a survival point of view, that nobody took him out? Assassins have been around for quite a while ;) ;)
scrappletonThreads: -
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 Sep 26, 09, 22:48    #10
Greg Zhukov saved Stalin's a.ss in the war. Stalin left to his own devices made many a horrible decision, which he promptly blamed on others.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Sep 26, 09, 22:48    #11
Seanus:
Doesn't it strike you as strange, from a survival point of view, that nobody took him out?

I think they tried...more than twenty times Hitler survived them as we now know.
But we only know this because the Nazi-Reich broke down and all informations came to the light.
Something which didn't happened to the Soviet-imperium that way....many mysteries are still to solve!

I've seen a documentation that his end was an successful assassination actually.
He got sick but the doctors just stood there and did nothings...one said they had been to scared to get accused later for doing something wrong and get killed or made to go to the Gulag.
Others said they wanted the beast see go at least...
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Sep 26, 09, 22:53    #12
You see, there's too much hearsay in history, BB. How can we really believe anything if accounts are so divided? Were you there in WWII, BB?

One thing is pretty much for sure, Hey Joe wasn't written for Stalin ;)
PaulieThreads: 1
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Edited by: Paulie  Sep 26, 09, 23:26    #13
Seanus:
Were you there in WWII, BB?

Harry was there, maybe he can shed some light on the subject.

Harry, without quoting wikipedia, what was uncle joe thinking?
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Sep 26, 09, 23:29    #14
He's a remnant is he? A foglet from a bygone generation. It's amazing how many experts there are who weren't even there.
scrappletonThreads: -
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 Sep 26, 09, 23:34    #15
Seanus:
Hey Joe wasn't written for Stalin ;)

Naturally, the last thing Uncle Joe ever had in his hand was a gun.
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Sep 26, 09, 23:40    #16
The theory of callousness is plausible. Stalin clearly loved death and he likely embraced Hitler's plan to wipe out even more people. Still, a grand plan?? He certainly harboured ambitions to spread communism as we saw :(
scrappletonThreads: -
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 Sep 26, 09, 23:47    #17
Seanus:
Still, a grand plan??

Nahh, no grand plan he just got double crossed with Moltov-Ribbentrop. Hitler was right because he knew he would have to fight Stalin sooner or later anyway. Who here thinks Stalin would have shared Europe with Hitler? Hitler's gamble almost paid off too.

Unfortunately 13 million civilians had to pay the ultimate price for these two nutcases.
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Sep 26, 09, 23:50    #18
Absolutely. They would NEVER have shared. History has shown that psychopaths just don't get on. Hitler's philosophy was an absolute one, as was Stalin's.

Fascism and communism share some features but they are cut from a different cloth.
polishcanuckThreads: 10
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 Sep 27, 09, 00:59    #19
Some historians (edvard radzinsky i believe) believe he had a grand plan to start ww3 to spread communism across the globe! Insane man.
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Sep 27, 09, 01:00    #20
Well, he certainly wanted to spread it but WWIII, nah! Aspirations tend to be curbed when they become overly ambitious.
Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34
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Edited by: Moderator  Sep 27, 09, 01:42    #21
polishcanuck:
Some historians (edvard radzinsky i believe) believe he had a grand plan to start ww3 to spread communism across the globe! Insane man.

He had paranoia about the West invading him... Him invading them I dearly doubt that. Since he well knew that the West gave them alot of trucks and so on. (Well if they just could "lend" him this stuff doesn't it mean they produced like 100 times more?)
NathanThreads: 33
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Edited by: Nathan  Oct 9, 09, 04:34    #22
George Orwell "1984". The main hero dies after days and nights of tortures and when he dies he thanks Big Brother for that and for everything. This was the policy of Stalin - to get people to the point where they kill own mother and say "Slawa Partiji i Tawarishchu Stalinu" in their yelping voices. To break any human feature we possess under normal circumstances. BB is absolutely right. In 1937-8 all the thinking potential of the Soviet Army was killed off. Seanus, you think it is strange? I agree, you, probably, won't find it anywhere in history on the same scale. Scrappleton said that Zhukov saved Stalin's ass. BS. Zhukov was the most mediocre, brutal and unskilled general ever, who knew nothing of military and used only position and blatant brutality of his psycopathic character to do whatever was told. He was saved and died buried under medals because he was a beast, not a human being. People with brains and feelings ended up shot at the back of their heads (if they were lucky). Why did Stalin do that? Because he feared of his own ass and was ordering killing people around him all the time throughout his career. He didn't worry about generals. What are they for if you have brainwashed, underfed, million-counting, bear-foot, fearful herd that would eat Europe alive just to see a ray of sun tomorrow? What would have Hitler done with his soldiers used to real comfort as compared to Soviet soldier reality? I heard story from live people about how they were hungry for weeks, one rifle for three people and politruk (person responsible for keeping "fire" in soldiers' souls by keeping on repeating the same BS about how important they are for homeland and the most important for Tawarishch Stalin and the Communist Party). Did a dressed-up soldier with cigarettes and sandwich with evenly spread butter had a chance? NO! Also look at numbers of fallen soldiers, where do you any skill of an ass-hole Zhukov? They were using these brave people as cannon-fodder. If there is hell, I wish these 0s suffer for every single hair they let fall.
1jolaThreads: 33
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Edited by: 1jola  Oct 9, 09, 08:51    #23
Suvorow has been writing about this for years. His views are very sound, but he meets two violent opponents: Kremlin historians, AKA Russsian historians, and certain fans of an incompetent corporal playing field marshal and ceasar-the icebreaker of the revolution.

Everything the Soviets did prior to 1941 was offenssive.

I'm a big fan of Suvorov, and if you have never read his books, I recommend Aquarium, about his experiences as a GRU officer. It was made into a film by an excellent Polish director-Antoni Krauze. Don't start reading it before bedtime.

Another excellent book is Żołnierze Wolnośći,The Freedom Soldiers, I suppose in English.

A good documentary with Suvorov on the subject(English subtitles):



Other parts at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2wVV5OnBVw
MareGaeaThreads: 45
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Edited by: MareGaea  Oct 9, 09, 09:28    #24
szczeciniak:
Stalin tricked Hitler into starting the war

I don't think so. Hitler had an agenda for Eastern Europe as soon as he came to power. I don't think that he needed to be tricked into a war he already was planning. Some sources say that Stalin nearly fell off his chair when hearing the news that Nazi-Germany had attacked them.

On the other hand (and it's a bit of "if-history"), some theories say that there is reason to believe that Stalin would've attacked Germany sooner or later after the Polish conquest and that it was only a matter of time as he was trying to get the Red Army up to strength.

Edit: I heard Edvard Radzinsky mention here. Who takes Radzinsky serious?

Quote from Wiki:

"In his review on the Radzinsky's "Stalin: The First In-Depth Biography Based on Explosive New Documents from Russia's Secret Archives" David Brandenberger points out that this book "is essentially a compilation of fact, opinion and gossip already in circulation for decades", and that this book is far inferior to the books of other authors e.g. O. V. Khlevnyuk, Lars Lih, Stephen Kotkin, and Robert W. Thurston."


I'm always amazed how ppl quote inferior Historians and present their views as proof or base their own views on that. Why nobody ever quotes really good historians as A.J.P. Taylor or Fernand Braudel or Fritz Fischer? Is this because the views of those guys falsify speculationalists' utopian claims?


>^..^<

M-G (invades Germany this weekend, or at least a part of it)
1jolaThreads: 33
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 Oct 9, 09, 09:59    #25
So you are not going to watch this documantary,M-G, yet:

Some sources say that Stalin nearly fell off his chair when hearing the news that Nazi-Germany had attacked them.

followed by:

I'm always amazed how ppl quote inferior Historians

Now that we stopped laughing, you seem to think that Stalin and the communists had no plans for Europe, only Hitler. Quite nouvelle view.
MareGaeaThreads: 45
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Edited by: MareGaea  Oct 9, 09, 10:02    #26
1jola

If you read well, and I know that's an issue with some of you, you would notice that I write down both views. And yes, Radzinsky is an inferior Historian. At least, he is regarded as one. See the quote I added.

1jola:
So you are not going to watch this documantary,M-G, yet:

I am at work now, so YouTube has been blocked by our IT warriors. But when I'm at home I will watch it and I will give my opinion on it.

>^..^<

M-G (nah)
1jolaThreads: 33
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 Oct 9, 09, 10:09    #27
I was referring to your views, so do you have one other than the one I said you do?

Is Suvorov also 'inferrior?" In your view, that is.
MareGaeaThreads: 45
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 Oct 9, 09, 12:04    #28
1jola

My personal view is that I do think there were Soviet plans to "conquer" the whole of Europe - as the discovery of maps of Manchester (still not sure if that is a hoax though, haven't heard of if in a while), detailing the militairy strategies on how to conquer the city, in the vaults of a Moscovian archive, proves. Hitler had plans for world domination and so did Stalin. But both are the most notorious dictators of the 20th century, so it doesn't really surprise me. So, yes, I think it's feasible to assume that Stalin had this in mind.

About Suvorov: I cannot judge about him, because I haven't read anything of him. I read stuff from Radzinsky and I based my judgement on what I've read. But I will watch the video tonight and I will base my judgement on that video. If I think he has good or interesting points, I will buy a book or two and read up on it. If I don't then I won't :) Or maybe I will as I think one shouldn't only read books of ppl with whom you agree. But I will base my judgement on what I see or read from him. Before that I will not make any judgement.

>^..^<

M-G (ppl should read more)
HarryThreads: 62
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[Suspended]
 Oct 9, 09, 12:35    #29
Paulie:
Harry was there, maybe he can shed some light on the subject.

Harry, without quoting wikipedia, what was uncle joe thinking?

Still can't forgive me for pointing out you were talking complete and utter bollocks about the weather in Poland, eh? Nevermind, you'll get over it one day. In the meantime, I'd very much suggest you post neither too nor about me: I'll only make you look like a complete moron all over again.


1jola:
I'm a big fan of Suvorov, and if you have never read his books, I recommend Aquarium, about his experiences as a GRU officer.

I can let you know in advance when he'll next be in Warsaw and where he'll be doing book signings. His son lives in Warsaw (been here for nearly a decade) and is a very good mate of mine. There's a fairly good story which I think hasn't made it into any of the books about the medal given (after the defection) to the KGB guy who tried to nick Rezun before he defected: it's now in Vladimir's personal collection (he bought it at auction somewhere)!
1jolaThreads: 33
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Edited by: 1jola  Oct 9, 09, 13:00    #30
I remember you saying that you knew him. Do ping me when he comes, though. I'll take my stack of his books for signing. When I spoke to Krauze when he was making the film, he said security for Rezun was a big issue. Have they forgiven him?

He has a big following in Poland, and I often see people reading his books on the subway. I guess the latest book is an expanded version of Icebreaker.

For those interested, two books can be read on-line. One about Soviet Special Forces and one about Soviet Military Intelligence:

http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov6/index.html

http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov8/index.html

Someone raised a point about Stalin purging his officers recently, and Suvorov wrote about that too in:

Cleansing (Очищение). Why did Stalin beheaded his army?, Moscow, 2002, ISBN 5-17-009254-7

Harry, ask your friend if he also does the ant hills? What is the recommended dose? ;)


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