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The strange destiny of Antoni Aleksander Iliński


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Des EssientesThreads: 11
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Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Sep 14, 11, 23:17    #1
An interesting peculiarity of Polish fashion history is the fact that not long after a surviving copy of Tacitus’ Germania was discovered in Hersfeld Abbey and its contents, placing Sarmatia in what was now Poland, became known to the Szlachta, they began affecting an Oriental style of dress complete with turbans, and it stands to reason that after Lane’s French translation of The Thousand Nights and a Night became known to the Polish aristocracy those still sporting Sarmatian vestments must’ve sometimes though of the City of Peace when they looked in the mirror.

After fighting for Polish freedom in the November Uprising of 1830 against tsarist rule, and after troubling other reactionary European powers in Józef Zachariasz Bem’s Portugese Legion, Antoni Iliński found himself in Turkey organizing yet another force to fight Russian autocracy and he was arrested by the sultan’s police at the request of the Russians. Faced with deportation to a Russian prison Iliński opted to convert to Islam and joined the Sultan’s army wherein he distinguished himself by defeating the forces of a rebellious Bosniak vizier and by many victories against the Russians in the Crimean War and he was promoted again and again. Adam Zamoyski’s book The Polish Way claims that he was eventually made military governor of Baghdad. The Wikipedia article on Iliński says that he was subordinate in Baghdad to a fellow Slav named Omar Pasha (Mihajlo Latas), but in any event Iliński, now know as Iskander Pasha, had come closer than any other Pole in history to realizing the ultimate Sarmatian fantasy of combining both style and substance. He was practically the Caliph of Baghdad like the night adventurer Harun al-Raschid himself!
MyMomThreads: 9
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Joined: Aug 13, 11 ♂ 		Edited by: MyMom  Sep 14, 11, 23:36    #2
Interesting story, it reminded me of another crazy story - about "Polish king of Madagascar" - Maurycy Beniowski
they began affecting an Oriental style of dress complete with turbans

Are you sure about the turbans? That would obscure their Kozak haircuts ( which BTW have become popular recently in USA :D )
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Sep 14, 11, 23:43    #3
Are you sure about the turbans?

Yes, portraits and historical paintings from the 16th-18th century are rife with turbaned mustachioed Poles.
a.k.  Sep 15, 11, 10:16    #4
Oriental style of dress complete with turbans


what turbans?!? Are you kidding?!
IronsideThreads: 59
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Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: Ironside  Sep 15, 11, 10:42    #5
Yes, portraits and historical paintings from the 16th-18th century are rife with turbaned mustachioed Poles.

Thats hats silly, no turbans.
turbans phew

j
a.k.  Sep 15, 11, 11:02    #6
Thats hats silly, no turbans.


I think he might mean this late gothic/early renessaince hood named chaperon. It's element of western fashion (Burgundy to be accurate).
In Poland of XVII century the hat was furry and was called kołpak. It doesn't even resemble turban...
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Des Essientes  Sep 15, 11, 11:11    #7
There is a painting of St Stanislaus Kostka at banquet fainting at having heard a swear-word in which all the revelers save him are turbaned, but I was unable to find a copy of it online, and I am sure I have seen other pictures of other "Sarmat" Poles wearing turbans, but you all are right that turbans were not an integral part of Sarmatian costume, and most Sarmatian portraiture does feature them bare-headed.
southernThreads: 116
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Joined: May 17, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 15, 11, 11:24    #8
He should have surrendered to Russians.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Sep 15, 11, 12:51    #9
Southern, from a certain Sarmatian perspective what Iliński did made much more sense than the surrender you suggest. Sarmats saw themselves as a Turkic people that had adopted the Slavic language of the people they had subjugated, just as the Bulgars had done. They saw Turks and Tartars as their peers and they saw Russians as being utterly beneath them. However, Iliński's conversion to Islam was not at all typically Sarmatian as Sarmats thought that Roman Catholicism was the true faith and Turks and Tartars were wrong to reject it.
southernThreads: 116
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Joined: May 17, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: southern  Sep 15, 11, 12:58    #10
As a russian Orthodox general he would serve the purposes of Sarmatia much more properly.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Sep 15, 11, 13:12    #11
Southern, the Russians were going to imprison and perhaps execute him, not make him a general. Moreover, the purpose of Sarmatia was to be a free and powerful aristocracy of equals not to be damned Russian slaves to an autocrat.
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Joined: Aug 13, 11 ♂ 		Edited by: MyMom  Sep 15, 11, 13:16    #12
As a russian Orthodox general he would serve the purposes of Sarmatia much more properly.

Not really. At that time it was the Russians who occupied most of Poland. Ottomans were natural allies of Poles against both Russia and Austro-Hungary.
southernThreads: 116
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Joined: May 17, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: southern  Sep 15, 11, 13:23    #13
The Russians were reluctant to execute Poles.They usually offered them holidays to Siberia.Showing his real remorse to the tzar in an action of baptism he could easily get a career in the russian army given his military abilities where he could lead divisions of his compatriots in successful wars against the Turks.Instead of that he chose to abandon christianity and serve the porta.The Ottomans knew what they did when they trusted their troops to islamized Greeks,Serbs,Albanians etc.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Des Essientes  Sep 15, 11, 13:43    #14
his real remorse to the tzar

As a teenager Iliński began fighting the tsar. He would never have felt such remorse. Southern you suggest he bow to the oppressor of his own people, and leave them under this oppression, so he could lead Poles, in a Russian army, to fight and die against the oppressor of your people, the Greeks! You cannot be serious. Iliński was a brigadier general and he fought alongside the British and others against the Russians in the Crimea. I highly doubt he wanted to switch sides.
IronsideThreads: 59
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Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Sep 15, 11, 13:50    #15
They usually offered them holidays to Siberia.

I think you should go for holidays to Siberia and spread your BS there.
a.k.  Sep 15, 11, 17:20    #16
and I am sure I have seen other pictures of other "Sarmat" Poles wearing turbans


he lived between 1550 - 1568. It's too early for Sarmat ideology...

but you all are right that turbans were not an integral part of Sarmatian costume, and most Sarmatian portraiture does feature them bare-headed.


It's really interesting. Pease look for a painting of a szlachcic in turban. I think you've mixed something up.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Sep 15, 11, 18:02    #17
he lived between 1550 - 1568. It's too early for Sarmat ideology...

No, St Stanislaus Kostka was not too early to have been surrounded by nobles in Sarmatian attire at the banquet pictured in the painting I've referred to. Tacitus’ Germania was discovered in Hersfeld abbey in 1455. Jan Dlugosz (1415-1480) had already first used the term "Sarmatism" in connection with Poland, and claimed the Sarmatians as the ancestors of the Polish nobles, in his Annales seu cronicae incliti Regni Poloniae (Annals or Chronicles of the Famous Kingdom of Poland) and Maciej Miechowita’s Tractatus de duabus Sarmatis Europiana et Asiana et de contentis in eis, (Treatise on the two Sarmatias) had been published in 1517.
a.k.  Sep 15, 11, 18:47    #18
No, St Stanislaus Kostka was not too early to have been surrounded by nobles in Sarmatian attire at the banquet pictured in the painting I've referred to.


DE Polish noble class attire emerged in the late XVI century and no turban was included.
I'm pretty sure you must saw chaperon which was Burgundian fashion. Check Jan van Eycke self portrait and tell me if was it the thing you saw.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Sep 15, 11, 19:03    #19
DE Polish noble class attire emerged in the late XVI century and no turban was included.

A.K., I assure you that the painting of St Stanislaus Kostka I referred to does feature Polish nobles in Sarmatian attire and they are wearing turbans, not Burgundian hats. There was no specific headgear associated with Sarmatian attire and turbans were sometimes worn.
a.k.  Sep 15, 11, 19:14    #20
There was no specific headgear associated with Sarmatian attire and turbans were sometimes worn.


source please.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Sep 15, 11, 19:24    #21
source please

Go to the library and see The Polish Way by Adam Zamoyski as I am sure it contains the painting of St Stanislaus Kostka that I referred to as well as other pictures of Polish nobles in turbans. Why do you find the fact that Sarmats wore turbans so hard to believe a.k.? They deliberately cultivated an Oriental style right down to their Turkish haircuts.
David_18Threads: 111
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Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 15, 11, 19:32    #22
Go to the library and see The Polish Way by Adam Zamoyski as I am sure it contains the painting of St Stanislaus Kostka

Sorry mate cant find those pics. Could be that i got the new edition of his book and not the old one from the 80's?

Anyway it is true that the Polish nobles choose a turkish look for a while. They even had their own personal staff of janisaries ^^. And some of them went so far to have their own harems hehe.

Not bad times to be a noble in Poland :D
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Sep 15, 11, 19:46    #23
Sorry mate cant find those pics. Could be that i got the new edition of his book and not the old one from the 80's?

I am certain the painting of Saint Kostka is in there as I remember showing it to my cousin. It features a large banquet table with mustachioed Sarmats in turbans all around except for the Saint in the foreground who is clean shaven, hatless, haloed, and swooning. All the diners have shocked looks on their faces. Does your edition of the book have color plates at all David?
David_18Threads: 111
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Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 15, 11, 19:56    #24
Does your edition of the book have color plates at all David?

yupp.
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Sep 15, 11, 20:05    #25
Oh well I know what I saw and turbans are not the focus of this thread anyhow. I don't want to argue about head gear anymore, nor do I want to see anymore creepy photos of weirdos licking drawn swords. This thread is meant to discuss the strange destiny of Antoni Iliński. For example: Iliński commaded forces that put down an uprising against Turkish rule in the Basra region. I wonder if he was mentioned at all in the Polish press in connection with Poland's recent foray in Iraq in the "Coalition of the Willing".
a.k.  Sep 15, 11, 20:08    #26
Why do you find the fact that Sarmats wore turbans so hard to believe a.k.?


Because I've read many books about Polish costumes and fashion and there was no mention about turbans :) Look, you're the only one here who claims sawing them.

Anyway it is true that the Polish nobles choose a turkish look for a while.


Rather for a long while :) Yes they were wearing costumes that were of oriental roots, probably the fashion of them reached Poland via Hungary. However it evolved into something unique. Certainly Polish nobles in XVIIIc. liked to wear Persian/Turkish shashes. Shortly such shashes started to be manufactured on Polish lands with less oriental design. No turbans were worn.
boletusThreads: 47
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Joined: Apr 13, 11 ♂ 		 Sep 15, 11, 20:13    #27
Des Essientes:
You have probably seen some painting of Wacław Seweryn Rzewuski (1784-1831) - an aficionado of Polish Arabian Horses, and … anything related to Arab culture. All articles about history of Polish Arabian Horses refer to him - just google Polish Arabian or see the bottom of the page. By the end of his life he settled in his estate Sawrań in Podolia, always dressed as a desert Arab, surrounded by servants dressed like him - among his beloved horses.

In 1831, during the November Uprising, he founded and commanded a squad of cavalry riding his Arabian horses. He died at the lost battle of Daszów in unexplained circumstances on 14 May 1831.

One painting, by Aleksander Orlowski, shown in Polish Wikipedia here: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wacław_Seweryn_Rzewuski, shows him wearing some kind of oriental cup. But that is not a turban.

There is a water-colour by Juliusz Kossak, 1877, "Farys" - representing Rzewuski as Beduin. A. Mickiewicz wrote his famous poem "Farys" with him in mind:

Pędź, latawcze białonogi!
Góry z drogi, lasy z drogi!

He was also painted by January Suchodolski. One of Piotr Michałowski's paintings is entitled "Emir Rzewuski na koniu". Remember this was a time of Polish Romanticism, and Rzewuski was an exemplification of Polish fascination with Orient. Juliusz Słowacki wrote a poem "Duma o Wacławie Rzewuskim", Wincenty Pol wrote "Hetman Zotobrody", Ukrainian Tymko Zadura - "Zołotaja Boroda", Michał Budzyński - "Wacław Rzewuski".

In other words Wacław Sewryn Rzewuski was a Polish version of Lawrence of Arabia, only one century before the latter.

See: The Polish Quest for Arabian Horses, Peter Harrigan, http://www.rijad.polemb.net/index.php?document=63
or here http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200106/the.polish.quest.for.arab ian.horses.htm
(At the left upper corner of that page there is a miniature of possibly Rzewuski, in turban I guess, possibly one of the paintings by Kossak, Suchodolski or Michałowski).
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Des Essientes  Sep 15, 11, 21:43    #28
This Pole looks like he is wearing a Turban. http://www.abcgallery.com/R/rembrandt/rembrandt125.html
MyMomThreads: 9
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Joined: Aug 13, 11 ♂ 		 Sep 15, 11, 21:54    #29
This Pole looks like he is wearing a Turban. http://www.abcgallery.com/R/rembrandt/rembrandt125.html

:D not really :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisowczycy

BTW I'm sorry to turn this thread into argument about turbans
Des EssientesThreads: 11
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Joined: Feb 6, 10  Pictures: 4 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Sep 15, 11, 22:02    #30
BTW I'm sorry to turn this thread into argument about turbans

Don't worry about it. Do you think that his headgear is a kuczma?

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