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Did the pre-WW II conduct of Jews in Poland instigate antisemitism towards them?


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Mr_ChipsThreads: 1
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  Feb 9, 10, 09:24 / #1
It has always puzzled me why anti-semitism was able to spread so quickly in europe before and during the Second World War.

I think I may have found some answers in the Shoah interviews by Claude Lanzmann.

On disc two, Lanzmann is interviewing locals from the village of Chelmo who describe life when Jewish people lived in the town. They were clearly not well liked as they "controlled the capital" of the town, and apparently had the Poles working in their service.

"The Poles had to serve them and work"

So whilst the Polish women had to work to survive, the Jewesses did not work at all and "only thought of their beauty and clothes"; in the process attracting the local Polish men and obviously infuriating the local women. The Jews apparently owned all the best houses facing the streets, decorating them with Jewish symbols that still were visible in the video. Meanwhile whilst the Poles lived behind them with the privys.

According to the locals, "All Poland was in Jew's hands." They owned the industries along with the Germans, were dishonest people because they "imposed their prices" (ie ripped people off with high prices during extreme poverty) and were generally unfriendly to the locals.

Rather than attempting to assimilate in any way with their hosts, the Jews dressed and groomed themselves according to their customs and were in the eyes of the locals, ugly to look at with long beards and strange hair. They constructed a huge Synagog in the middle of town which is still visible in the video, and considering the state of the town when the movie was filmed, it was a rather lavish, imposing and ostentatious display of wealth: especially considering the extreme poverty in Poland pre WW2.

Not surprisingly, several of those interviewed indicated that they were happy that the Jews had left and not returned.

After watching this, I can't help but think that Theodor Herzl (the founder of the Zionist movement) was correct in his assertion that anti-Semitism could not be defeated or cured - as the Jews were their own worst enemy when it came to public relations with their hosts.

Herzl writes "The Jewish question persists wherever Jews live in appreciable numbers. Wherever it does not exist, it is brought in together with Jewish immigrants. We are naturally drawn into those places where we are not persecuted, and our appearance there gives rise to persecution. This is the case, and will inevitably be so, everywhere, even in highly civilised countries—see, for instance, France—so long as the Jewish question is not solved on the political level. The unfortunate Jews are now carrying the seeds of anti-Semitism into England; they have already introduced it into America."

If one considers the experience of the inhabitants of Chelmo once the Jews "settled" there anything to go by, Herzl's views make absolute sense. If the Jew's themselves are carrying the seeds of anti-semitism according to Herzl , presumably by their conduct, can it reasonably be concluded that they themselves are responsible?

Surely it is reasonable to argue that if the Jew's, by their own admission, willingly and deliberately engage in a course of conduct that they are acutely aware has resulted in repeated persecutions to those engaging in said conduct; they are, by doing so, instigating and provoking a an anticipated result and as such are directly responsible for any consequences thereof.

This of course might explain why they are so heavily into promoting the concept of "tolerance" and "understanding" as an integral part of the Holocaust as that conveniently excuses them of responsibility for their own contributions. According to their logic, they should be freely allowed to enter any country and exploit it's people and resources for profit with the intention of NEVER assimilating with the locals and only helping other Jews, without any recourse whatsoever.

Sounds like a very one-sided deal to me..

vetalaThreads: -
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Edited by: vetala   Feb 9, 10, 15:15 / #2
Mr_Chips
Yup. You are absolutely right. Just because Jews were well-educated totally doesn't mean that they should get well-paid jobs too. They should have humbly worked as farmers and street-cleaners, dress like peasants and spend their hard-earned money on new church bell instead of some synagogue or whatever else. So insulting! Death is the only proper punishment for daring to hurt the feelings of a Polish cham.
Mr_ChipsThreads: 1
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  Feb 9, 10, 18:50 / #3
vetala:
Yup. You are absolutely right. Just because Jews were well-educated totally doesn't mean that they should get well-paid jobs too. They should have humbly worked as farmers and street-cleaners, dress like peasants and spend their hard-earned money on new church bell instead of some synagogue or whatever else. So insulting! Death is the only proper punishment for daring to hurt the feelings of a Polish cham.

The question remains.
As you have indicated, Jews were well-educated, had the well-paid jobs. It then goes without saying that they also owned the businesses and effectively controlled the economy. As for the Poles, much like the Germans, they were hard working yet simple folk.

So, if we couple pre-war sentiments with the fact that Jews in Poland were quick to offer help to the incoming Soviets (according to Tomasz Strzembosz) we get to the core of problem between the two cultures. To answer my own question: Yes, I would think that the actions of Jews both pre-war and into the invasion of Poland created the animosity which manifested itself, and when one speaks of Jews, that animosity is coined as antisemitism.
jonniThreads: 21
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  Feb 9, 10, 18:53 / #4
Mr_Chips:
Yes, I would think that the actions of Jews both pre-war and into the invasion of Poland created the animosity which manifested itself, and when one speaks of Jews, that animosity is coined as antisemitism.

So how do you rationalise that against anti-semitism elsewhere?
szkotja2007Threads: 38
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  Feb 9, 10, 19:04 / #5
There is a lot of info on zionist "black flag" bombings against Jews in the middle east which helped bolster the zionist cause and support for the new state of Israel.
f stopThreads: 14
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  Feb 9, 10, 19:28 / #6
it is always a fine line between the need to assimilate into the country you're in, and the need to keep your own culture alive.
Very few do it well, but for those families that fail, punishment by death is... what... extreme?.. criminal? ... inhuman?
PrickiewiczThreads: -
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  Feb 9, 10, 19:28 / #7
Mr_Chips:
they "controlled the capital" of the town, and apparently had the Poles working in their service.

There was a certain amount of arrogance that some Jews displayed toward Poles. Hate bounces back.
Grzegorz_Threads: 67
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  Feb 9, 10, 19:45 / #8
Mr_Chips:
So whilst the Polish women had to work to survive, the Jewesses did not work at all and "only thought of their beauty and clothes"

Yep. 6 million Jews in Poland were millioners, they were sitting on their asses and Poles were serving them... /sarcasm off

Vast majority of Jews in pre WWII Poland were dirt poor uneducated people, there were some very rich Jewish families but vast majority were very very poor.

Mr_Chips:
why anti-semitism was able to spread so quickly in europe

Jews weren't liked because they didn't want to integrate, prettey much like many non-European immigrants right now in western Europe.
vetalaThreads: -
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  Feb 9, 10, 19:46 / #9
Prickiewicz:
There was a certain amount of arrogance that some Jews displayed toward Poles. Hate bounces back.

In any other circumstances I would agree with you, but when your neighbour's family is brutally murdered it is cruel and inhumane to speak ill of him over some petty grievances, regardless of your neighbour's nationality. As much as I hate jealousy and prejudice, I'm able to forgive it as long as it doesn't hurt anybody. However, in times of genocide and terrible tragedy only the most disgusting, heartless monsters feel no sympathy for the victims just because years earlier they had bragged about their new sofa!
Mr_ChipsThreads: 1
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  Feb 9, 10, 20:02 / #10
jonni:
So how do you rationalise that against anti-semitism elsewhere?

I don't know the answer to that.
However, I seem to recall reading that historically speaking, Jews have been forced to leave over 150 countries over the past 2000 years.

So perhaps a better question would be...What do Jews do that turns people against them?
vetalaThreads: -
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  Feb 9, 10, 20:26 / #11
Mr_Chips:
What do Jews do that turns people against them?

Good question. I have another - what do people with different skin colour do that turns people against them? What do women do that caused them to be treated like property for centuries? What did deformed/mentally unstable/albino/born out of the wedlock children do that caused people to murder them in the past?
jonniThreads: 21
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Edited by: jonni   Feb 9, 10, 20:28 / #12
Mr_Chips:
What do Jews do that turns people against them?

Or what do Poles do that turns people against them, for that matter, since as a nation they've had more bad times than good.
FrankThreads: 27
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  Feb 9, 10, 21:24 / #13
Yeah................yet another anti-semitic thread on the great Polishfoum board......justifying why one people can be discriminated against...then hated...then vilified ...then denied their rights as human beings, then exterminated by the wonderful Christian fascists of Europe....


Makes ya sorta proud.....;)....!
WawelThreads: -
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  Feb 9, 10, 22:12 / #14
Mr. Chips,

Let us ask the Palestinians. Perhaps they can shed some insight.
BzibziohThreads: 4
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  Feb 10, 10, 02:57 / #15
jonni:
Or what do Poles do that turns people against them, for that matter, since as a nation they've had more bad times than good.

What a thoughtless phrase! Or is it a classic demonstration of ignorance, contempt, and downright rudeness on the part of the supposedly civilized West?
jonniThreads: 21
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Edited by: jonni   Feb 10, 10, 02:59 / #16
Bzibzioh

Read post #10 before making brainless and nasty comments about post #12.

Then apologize.
Mr_ChipsThreads: 1
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  Feb 10, 10, 03:32 / #17
We are losing sight of the original question.
I don't think it a fair analogy to compare Jews to Poles, Palestinians or any other group.
Let's face it, Jews have a knack for making money and gravitating to the leadership roles of the countries they settle in. Certainly can't begrudge them that.
I don't see the same results from the other ethnic groups so I can't see how they can be compared..
jonniThreads: 21
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Edited by: jonni   Feb 10, 10, 03:41 / #18
Mr_Chips:
Jews have a knack for making money and gravitating to the leadership roles of the countries they settle in.

Think about it this way. If a group of people, any people become landless, they will have to develop other, more sophisticated skills. If a group value learning, they will become intellectually able, if a group have to migrate - often at short notice, they will develop acute survival skills and support networks.

Mr_Chips:
I don't see the same results from the other ethnic groups so I can't see how they can be compared

There are a few valid comparisons. No comparison can ever be exact though Parsees come to mind.
Mr_ChipsThreads: 1
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  Feb 10, 10, 09:56 / #19
jonni:
Think about it this way. If a group of people, any people become landless, they will have to develop other, more sophisticated skills. If a group value learning, they will become intellectually able, if a group have to migrate - often at short notice, they will develop acute survival skills and support networks.

The difference between Jews and others is that when Jews settle into a country, they ultimately gravitate into the political, banking, and professional realms of the new country, which sooner or later becomes apparent to the working classes of the host country, and in itself creating resentment towards the Jews for "taking over".
vetalaThreads: -
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  Feb 10, 10, 10:56 / #20
Mr_Chips:
The difference between Jews and others is that when Jews settle into a country, they ultimately gravitate into the political, banking, and professional realms of the new country

They don't have much of a choice since plumbing and cleaning proffessions are dominated by Poles. I'd be grateful if they agreed to switch though. It would be refreshing to see Polish immigrants as an elite in some country.
FrankThreads: 27
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  Feb 10, 10, 10:57 / #21
Mr_Chips:
The difference between Jews and others is that when Jews settle into a country, they ultimately gravitate into the political, banking, and professional realms of the new country, which sooner or later becomes apparent to the working classes of the host country, and in itself creating resentment towards the Jews for "taking over".

Just another excuse to discriminate, justify the ruthless, primitive reactions of those who choose to use the threat of violence and death to those they inately dislike.........what a pathetic rationale.

So when the Irish went to America, were treated as S**T by the incumbent ruling WASPs (as were successive waves of immigrants including the Polish)....then over 4/5 generations slowly worked their way out of virtual slavery, to positions of power, influence, became very successful....they are to be despised and then hated for it?????

Only one word to describe your points.......................BULLS**T!!!!!!!!!!!!

Another anti-semite on the board.........gee...how many is that!
joepilsudskiThreads: 39
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Edited by: joepilsudski   Feb 10, 10, 11:00 / #22
Mr_Chips:
It has always puzzled me why anti-semitism was able to spread so quickly in europe before and during the Second World War.

I think I may have found some answers in the Shoah interviews by Claude Lanzmann.

On disc two, Lanzmann is interviewing locals from the village of Chelmo who describe life when Jewish people lived in the town. They were clearly not well liked as they "controlled the capital" of the town, and apparently had the Poles working in their service.

"The Poles had to serve them and work"

So whilst the Polish women had to work to survive, the Jewesses did not work at all and "only thought of their beauty and clothes"; in the process attracting the local Polish men and obviously infuriating the local women. The Jews apparently owned all the best houses facing the streets, decorating them with Jewish symbols that still were visible in the video. Meanwhile whilst the Poles lived behind them with the privys.

According to the locals, "All Poland was in Jew's hands." They owned the industries along with the Germans, were dishonest people because they "imposed their prices" (ie ripped people off with high prices during extreme poverty) and were generally unfriendly to the locals.

Rather than attempting to assimilate in any way with their hosts, the Jews dressed and groomed themselves according to their customs and were in the eyes of the locals, ugly to look at with long beards and strange hair. They constructed a huge Synagog in the middle of town which is still visible in the video, and considering the state of the town when the movie was filmed, it was a rather lavish, imposing and ostentatious display of wealth: especially considering the extreme poverty in Poland pre WW2.

Not surprisingly, several of those interviewed indicated that they were happy that the Jews had left and not returned.

After watching this, I can't help but think that Theodor Herzl (the founder of the Zionist movement) was correct in his assertion that anti-Semitism could not be defeated or cured - as the Jews were their own worst enemy when it came to public relations with their hosts.

Herzl writes "The Jewish question persists wherever Jews live in appreciable numbers. Wherever it does not exist, it is brought in together with Jewish immigrants. We are naturally drawn into those places where we are not persecuted, and our appearance there gives rise to persecution. This is the case, and will inevitably be so, everywhere, even in highly civilised countries—see, for instance, France—so long as the Jewish question is not solved on the political level. The unfortunate Jews are now carrying the seeds of anti-Semitism into England; they have already introduced it into America."

If one considers the experience of the inhabitants of Chelmo once the Jews "settled" there anything to go by, Herzl's views make absolute sense. If the Jew's themselves are carrying the seeds of anti-semitism according to Herzl , presumably by their conduct, can it reasonably be concluded that they themselves are responsible?

Surely it is reasonable to argue that if the Jew's, by their own admission, willingly and deliberately engage in a course of conduct that they are acutely aware has resulted in repeated persecutions to those engaging in said conduct; they are, by doing so, instigating and provoking a an anticipated result and as such are directly responsible for any consequences thereof.

This of course might explain why they are so heavily into promoting the concept of "tolerance" and "understanding" as an integral part of the Holocaust as that conveniently excuses them of responsibility for their own contributions. According to their logic, they should be freely allowed to enter any country and exploit it's people and resources for profit with the intention of NEVER assimilating with the locals and only helping other Jews, without any recourse whatsoever.

Sounds like a very one-sided deal to me..

My friend you are not confused, you in fact answer you own question.

This behavior has been going on since the 1600s, when Polish szchlata or landlords and the Sjem gave Jews specially priviledges of tax collection, liquor distilling and distribution, and rights to extort Polish peasants and merchants...In 1648, these acts led directly to the fall of the Polish-Lithuanian federation, and Poland's disappearance as an independent nation. Poles and Ukies actually had to pay a middle man Jew a fee,before the Jew would unlick the door of a Polish Church, because landlord give him the keys.

As I say, Piles themselves create the problem by giving Khazars these special privileges.

'Give them an inch, they take a yard.'
...Human nature.

The Monseignor Theodor Hesburgh, President of Notre Dame University once said 'The problem with Jews is if you let them in, they try to take over'.

Exactly the situation in the USA today...This is not an accident.

A minority should be insured human rights, bot 'special privileges'.

jonni:
So how do you rationalise that against anti-semitism elsewhere?

I would advise you to read the book 'Anti-Semitism' by the French-Jewish writer Bernard Lazare...It is available fee online.

The problem manifests it self in the same form everywhere, sometimes to a vicious extreme, as in the case of the Bolsheviks.
hague1cameronThreads: -
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  Feb 10, 10, 11:19 / #23
This is a bit of a myth; there were very poor Jews just as well as rich ones. What is interesting however though, is that they constituted 10% of Poland’s pre war population and they occupied about 30% of the professions, this is an interesting demonstration of their ability to assimilate and Poland’s level of toleration.
jwojcieThreads: 1
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Edited by: jwojcie   Feb 10, 10, 11:36 / #24
Pre WWII antisemitism in Poland had a few sources:
1. obviously religion
2. partitions of Poland, you see Poles resisted occupation for about 123 years, and Jews as a more international factor in Poland mostly accepted new rulers (objectively speaking it is not accusation, it was logical choice). Anyway Polish uprising led to repressions of Polish community but not Jewish one which of course led to further problems between two communities.
3. I don't remember which Tsar did this, but some of them in the late XIX century repressed Jews in Russia (Poland was kind of autonomy inside of Russia) in the same time there was quite an economic boom in Poland, this led to massive influx of Russian Jews to Poland.
4. Quite substantial part of Jews in Poland was living in the cities. Traditionally Poland was rather rural country where power lied in noble landowner families. Cities were usually small and in substantial part inhabited by Germans and Jews (who rarely used Polish), and many of those cities belonged to some noble man. This balance of power dramatically changed in XIX century because of partitions and because of late industralization of Poland. Cities became main centres of power, but many of them had huge and influential non Polish communities.

Factor 2, 3 and 4 led to this:
- after regaining independence about half of companies belonged to Jews
- for many of Jews independence of Poland weren't good idea, many of them didn't speak Polish back then, had families in Russia/Germany
- relatively speaking quite many people of Jewish origin supported communist Russia or communist ideas (what in pre-war Poland was considered equal), and Russia was seen in Poland as one of two main enemies

So in the end for many people Jews were seen as an alien community which build fortune by taking advantage of misery of Polish nation under partitions. Add to that rising nationalism with ideology "who is not with us is against us" in Europe and the outcome is anti-semitism. One should remember that anti-semitism weren't only "anti-ism" in pre war Poland. It was multi-ethinic entity with tensions between Poles, Jews, Germans, Ukrainians, Russians, Belarusians and Lithuanians. Tensions between catholic, jewish, orthodox and protestant religions. If Hitler and Holocaust didn't happen we wouldn't focus on anti-semitism so much now.

It is worth to add that despite all of this between 1918 and 1939 assimilation of Jews into kind of modern Polish society started to take place. If WWII and Hitler didn't happen we would have probably about 10 millions of Poles of Jewish origin right now in Poland.
yehudiThreads: 1
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  Feb 10, 10, 12:48 / #25
jwojcie
Your analysis is based on a logical look at history. You explain why things happen in an objective way, without putting blame on anyone and sticking to facts as you understand them. That's why it doesn't belong in this thread, which Chip started in order to claim that the Jews deserved the holocaust. Chip's motivation isn't an understanding of historical trends – his motivation is hatred. The irony is that he's not in poland and probably isn't polish, and yet he contributes to the perception that Poles are anti-semites.
jwojcieThreads: 1
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  Feb 10, 10, 13:26 / #26
Thx
I believe, that it is not bad thing to put some rational perspective even in such threads. It is kind of the hobby on my part. Don't worry I don't intend to get into multi-post dispute here. I know the nature of this place.
Mr GrunwaldThreads: 21
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  Feb 10, 10, 14:19 / #27
jwojcie
Remarkable post I really to have to say that
SeanusThreads: 19
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  Feb 10, 10, 14:38 / #28
Greg is right above. Jews were very poor for the most part pre-WWII. They hadn't established themselves in the ways for which they are now famous (infamous). I read an article on how they refused to assimilate, preferring to create enclaves and lead as Jewish a life as was possible. I can't really comment on the truth of that article as I didn't live in those times. Poles don't assimilate that much into Western life so why should Jews have had to do the same? Double standards are not preferred.
yehudiThreads: 1
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  Feb 11, 10, 17:05 / #29
Mr_Chips:
The difference between Jews and others is that when Jews settle into a country, they ultimately gravitate into the political, banking, and professional realms of the new country, which sooner or later becomes apparent to the working classes of the host country, and in itself creating resentment towards the Jews for "taking over".

I guess now you can resent us for the internet. Google was started by two Jewish teenagers (one russian, one american). Facebook was started by Mark Zuckerberg - one of us. ICQ was an Israeli startup, and most Intel chips were developed in Israel.

But hats off to Poland for Steve Wozniak of Apple.
z_dariusThreads: 20
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  Feb 12, 10, 02:33 / #30
yehudi:
I guess now you can resent us for the internet.

Jews invented the Internet? Careful there. Al Gore already tried that trick. Israelis have one of the most extensive Internet monitoring networks but they were certainly nowhere near inventing it.

yehudi:
ICQ was an Israeli startup

It was a true a hackers dream :-) It had so many security holes that it competed with Swiss cheese.

yehudi:
[quote=yehudi]most Intel chips were developed in Israel.

Wow! Including Pentium designed by Vinod Dham of India?

Or do you just mean the M series and some III and subsequent for which patent lawsuits against Intel ensued? Or do you mean the Intel 64 Bit architecture which Intel openly admitted was a reverse engineered AMD chip?

Since you were caught lying about IT stuff before, I guess you believe that a lie repeated many times becomes the truth, huh?

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